#10 – No One Left Unchanged: Multicultural Ministries ft. Brian Stewart and Rachel Wilson

 In

…the gospel has to be as true for someone in a different culture and a different life situation, it has to be as powerful for them, as it is for me – even though we have different backgrounds. – Rachel Wilson

The Spring Institute describes the differences between these terms:

Multicultural refers to a society that contains several cultural or ethnic groups.  People live alongside one another, but each cultural group does not necessarily have engaging interactions with each other.  For example, in a multicultural neighborhood people may frequent ethnic grocery stores and restaurants without really interacting with their neighbors from other countries.

Cross-cultural deals with the comparison of different cultures.  In cross-cultural communication, differences are understood and acknowledged, and can bring about individual change, but not collective transformations. In cross-cultural societies, one culture is often considered “the norm” and all other cultures are compared or contrasted to the dominant culture.

Intercultural describes communities in which there is a deep understanding and respect for all cultures. Intercultural communication focuses on the mutual exchange of ideas and cultural norms and the development of deep relationships. In an intercultural society, no one is left unchanged because everyone learns from one another and grows together.

How is your church reaching into the community around and within itself? Do you do multicultural ministry or intercultural ministry? How can you be more effective and engaging within your unique setting and demographic?

In this episode, Rob Thiessen discusses how 2 of our BCMB churches are handling intercultural ministry, with guests: Brian Stewart (The Life Centre) and Rachel Wilson (Church on Five)

Topics discussed:

  • What does multicultural/intercultural mean?
  • Examples/ways to increase your church’s diversity and reach
  • Benefits of intentional intercultural ministry
  • Challenges to multicultural leadership
  • Importance of being intentional

Show Notes (books mentioned in the episode):

 

#10 – No One Left Unchanged: Multicultural Ministries ft. Brian Stewart and Rachel Wilson
BCMB Pastor to Pastor Podcast

 
 
00:00 / 37:34
 
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Rachel Wilson:
I lived in the United States for 12 years, and now I'm back in Canada. But as a Caucasian North American, you were raised in a very individualistic culture. And yet, the Bible speaks into a very communal culture. And so this is one of those areas where, if I am only worshipping with people who look like me and were raised like me, I'm going to miss part of what the gospel is saying. It's going to be easy for me to misinterpret things and I'm going to miss parts of who God is.

Brian Stewart:
Yeah. For different cultures, you really need to understand and welcome how they process things and just keep that in mind. And at the same time, try to think, you know, I don't know everything.

BCMB Intro:
Welcome to the BCMB podcast. Pastor to Pastor, this is a podcast by the British Columbia Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches. We want to help equip and encourage pastors, churches and anyone else who wants to listen in and be more effective in their ministry. This is Episode 10, Multicultural Ministries, with Rachel Wilson and Brian Stewart.

Rob Thiessen:
All right. Hey, everyone, welcome to the BCMB podcast. A podcast by Pastors for Pastors. My name is Rob Thiessen. I'm the conference minister for the BC Mennonite Brethren churches. And I'm really excited to have you here with us for this podcast. Got a couple of guests today: Rachel Wilson is part of the pastoral team. Her and her husband are actually co-pastoring the Church on Five in Richmond. Welcome, Rachel.

Rachel Wilson:
Thanks.

Rob Thiessen:
And Brian Stewart, who many of us know - he and his wife, Carol, shared their testimony at our recent Pastors and Spouses Retreat. And Brian is a pastor at the Life Center here in Abbotsford. So just for introductions, I'd like to just, let's hear a little bit from each of you about your story, in particular, the multicultural side, because that's our topic today. We want to talk about multicultural, intercultural, whatever many cultures ministry in our churches and just talk about some of the joys and challenges and what what you've been learning on this journey in your own communities. So, Brian, why don't you start us off?

Brian Stewart:
Yeah. Great. Great to be here. Well, it probably begins - I grew up in Toronto, I was born in Toronto, spent the first 30 years of my life there. So I think just growing up in Toronto, there it's very multicultural. And from a young age, I started to travel. My dad's from England, my mom's from Boston, United States. So I'd go down to Boston to visit my grandparents every year. And from early 20s, I did traveling, you know, around Europe and things like that. So I think I've always had this fascination with different cultures. So I think that probably started back when I was a young person. We went to minister in Ottawa for a number of years. Woodstock, Ontario, quite a Caucasian little community. When we came out to B.C. 12 years ago, we were at a church and we realized all these different cultures. So it just seemed to make sense to us that the church should reflect the community that it's part of. And so we just had the desire for the church to start doing that. And same when we came out here to Abbotsford, we live in a multicultural community, I just, personally there's something about different cultures that I'm fascinated with. I'm just always intrigued about them.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah, yeah. That's amazing. True, true. And the food helps, too, right?

Brian Stewart:
Food is good.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. Rachel, how about you? Where, where did your journey begin in this area? Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Rachel Wilson:
Yes. Sure. I grew up in New Brunswick, which is not the hub of multicultural anything, although as I continue to go home to visit, it is becoming increasingly so. But when I was growing up, quite a Caucasian community, but my parents had quite a radical conversion to following Jesus when they were in their mid 20s, just before I was born. And my dad really felt drawn to street ministry, drawn to minister in cities all up and down the East Coast. That was the beginning point. And so that's kind of how my love for people and also cities has produced this love for seeing a church of people of many different nations come together to worship the Lord. And so I think if you are at all interested in ministering in a city, you're going to now be talking about ministering multiculturally, because, as Brian said, we have to have our churches be representative of our communities and we have to approach our communities with that missionary mindset. So growing up, you know, I traveled and did a lot of ministry in cities with my parents, led missions teams (kind of with my parents). And when I graduated college, my husband and I moved to Indianapolis to be youth pastors there. Then we were in upstate New York for eight years and then about a year ago, moved here to Richmond.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah, at Church on Five.

Rachel Wilson:
Yes.

Rob Thiessen:
So Church on Five, Richmond, you know, as I think most of our B.C. listeners will know, it's Richmond's pretty much an Asian community. And how is that reflected at Church on Five? What cultures are represented there and what does that look like?

Rachel Wilson:
You know, I love our church. I felt immediately home when we came to interview for the job and we did this fun thing this year: we had a multicultural food fest and discovered there were, like, 25 nations represented in our church. And I think it's such a beautiful community. We have people from all different cultures - from South America, from South Africa, from China, from Korea, and many different parts of the Commonwealth. I mean, it's just such a welcoming environment and something I can't really take credit for. Of course, we continue to uplift and pursue a vision of being one church under Jesus, no matter where you come from. But some of these wonderful things were happening before I ever got there.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. Now, just to let the listening audience know a little bit about Church on Five, like you recently had a name change. It used to be Richmond Bethel Church. So talk to us a little bit about the name change and what was behind that.

Rachel Wilson:
Yeah, that's a great question. So Richmond Bethel was meeting every Sunday and kind of just going through some trying to figure out how to continue thriving ministry and really struggling in that as times were changing. And right across the parking lot, there was another church that was renting a facility on the other side of the parking lot and also finding themselves in the same position. And we happened to have a transitional pastor who had worked in both congregations, and he approached the leadership of both churches and said, "I really think we can do more for the kingdom together, than what we can do alone in our two separate congregations." And about two years ago, the congregations decided to merge together. And so we have just this really unique blend, not only of different cultures, but of two different theological traditions, one being Mennonite Brethren and the other being Alliance. And so there's all kinds of diversity present in our congregation. It was after that merger that they began searching for a new lead pastor. And when my husband and I decided, hey, this looks like a really good fit for us.

Rob Thiessen:
Mm hmm. Yeah. So a church like that, obviously, is going through transitions, doing multi, multi things. So it puts you in a position of saying, hey, you know, we're not in a rut anymore. We're already changing. What else could we change? And maybe that's what we'll want to talk about a little bit this morning with our audience. Whether they're listening morning or evening, I don't know, but it's morning for us, so... When we talk about multicultural, multi-ethnic, intercultural, what is it that we're talking about? And maybe, you know, a question that you might venture into and maybe an obvious question: So, "Isn't it just easier sometimes, to just go with, you know, what traditionally has been called by missiologists - the Homogeneous Unit Principle?" That is, you know, I think it's John Ortberg's new book, "I'd like you a lot more if you were more like me." is the title of his book, which I have yet to read, but I can imagine it'll be challenging. But, I think that mindset is true of just people. Right? I like my kind of people. And of course, that's how we are often as the default attitude we come even to church with. So, what are we talking about? What's the goal? What's the dream here with multicultural, intercultural? What are we shooting for and why are we picking the hard road? Maybe, you know, take a take a shot at that, Brian, and then we'll hear from Rachel.

Brian Stewart:
Sure. Yeah. My understanding is that "multi-ethnic" would be in regards to, say, a church if there's different ethnic groups in the congregation. So you just have different ethnic groups. But "multicultural" is a step beyond that, where you actually are representing the cultures of these nations. So there's a bit more of a blending, a bit more of that blending taking place.

Brian Stewart:
So, I think, yeah, why do we do this? Yeah, in some ways it probably is easier. But, you know, we do gravitate to our own type of people, the people like us as well. And I think, you know, for some churches that that depends on their setting. When we were in Woodstock, as a Caucasian I mean, if you saw someone with black skin walking down the street, they would really stand out. So a lot of those churches where Caucasian. And so I think for some churches, that's great. And that's the way they should go. Personally, I mean, I think our culture in Canada, we live in a very multicultural Canada. Our neighborhood, here in Abbotsford, the lower mainland Fraser Valley is very multicultural. So, you know, why not? I guess for me, there's something biblically that drives it, but also along with that, it's something just exciting. I mean, I go back to what I said at the beginning, I'm fascinated with different cultures. It's just really a great aspect. So, it makes everything more exciting and lively as you try to have these cultures from your neighborhood in the congregation. And you learn from people and the different cultures as well.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. Good. That's great. Rachel?

Rachel Wilson:
Yes. I think it's possible that if we only stick with the people who are like us, we will miss parts of the gospel that are so relevant to people in other cultures and other parts of the world. And one great example for us is, is this, you know, I lived in the United States for 12 years and now I'm back in Canada. But as a Caucasian North American, you were raised in a very individualistic culture. And yet, the Bible speaks into a very communal culture. And so this is one of those areas where if I'm only worshipping with people who look like me and were raised like me, I'm going to miss part of what the gospel is saying. It's going to be easy for me to misinterpret things and I'm going to miss parts of who God is, because the gospel has to be as true for someone in a different culture and a different life situation, it has to be as powerful for them as it is for me - even though we have different backgrounds. And so, I do think it's really important for us to look into our communities. My church in New York: people used to sit around the table and say, "How do we make our church more diverse?" And the lead pastor would say, "Listen, our community is 92 percent Caucasian." And so, we pursued diversity economically. We pursued diversity in other ways. And of course, we pursued it ethnically. But we have to be honest about the kind of communities that we're in. Now, when you flip it, kind of like Brian said, if we are living in a multicultural community and everywhere we go there is a celebration of different kinds of people, and then we are to go into our churches and we are divided again, there is something disjointed about that for me. And so, not only theologically but just incarnationally. If we're going to do incarnational ministry, we need to really listen and learn from our community as missionaries.

Brian Stewart:
I think what's good about what Rachel said about the blindspots, like even theologically when I came from (I was in another denomination before coming to the M.B.), and one of the things I found attractive, about the M.B. is the whole "communal hermeneutic". You know, I kept hearing that term, and I really was drawn to that, that the whole thing we decide and understand the scriptures, what they're saying, together in community. So sometimes there's those blind spots you have, you don't even realize it.

Rob Thiessen:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Especially, people from other cultures read the Bible differently and it highlights for us, actually, that the Bible was written in a different culture than ours, right? So, we interpret it through western eyes and then someone else comes along who's maybe more eastern or from the southern hemisphere and they see things that we have glossed over or chosen to ignore. So that's really, really important. And that's, that's great.

Rob Thiessen:
Let's just think about scripture and the vision that the scripture portrays. So, you know, as you teach as shepherds and pastors, teachers in your context, share a little bit, "Where do you go in the Bible?" Because, you know, another thing about Mennonite Brethren is that the Word of God is important to us. Is this something that you find embedded in scripture? Is it driven by scripture? And if so, you know, what are your go to texts? How do you teach the church about this from scripture?

Rachel Wilson:
I think that God was always a God of the nations. And we can see all throughout Israel's history, that they were meant to be a light to the nations and to show all cultures who Yaweh was and they failed in that mission. And so, it's no surprise when we see the early church forming, that we see that restoration of cultural diversity. And I love how N.T. Wright says, you know, "What happened in Genesis 11 at the Tower of Babel, was reversed in Pentecost that we see God setting this right, that the nations come together under Him." And I think for me, we're focusing with our congregation on how the world is going to tell you that your identity is formed by all kinds of things. But we find our identity in Jesus, not only as individuals, but as a community. And so, we receive our identity from Him and we also receive our new family, who is the church. And that the church is both a human and a spiritual entity. And so, some of those great verses that we see, like in Galatians Chapter 3, where it says, "no male or female, no Jew or Gentile," we see, not that we should whitewash over our cultural differences, but that Jesus unites us and calls us to a unity and to a love in the New Testament that is greater than our differences. And that that will actually be a testimony to the world of our faith in Jesus, that there is a love greater than our differences.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah, okay. Well, that's good. So, a question for a Church on Five. So, you mentioned that you had, like, a multicultural meal together. Was that before? Did you mention that during the podcast? I don't know. We've been talking for a while already, but you mentioned that you had a sort of a shared dinner together or everybody brought their food.

Rachel Wilson:
Yes.

Rob Thiessen:
What are some other ways that you express this new family identity at the Church on Five? How how do you celebrate that there are, you know, these different cultures? So, just what does that look like at Church on Five?

Rachel Wilson:
Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, something that Brian's church seems to do really well is that there are those moments in worship where even if you aren't every Sunday doing multiple languages in your worship service, I do think there's very appropriate times where we should do that and we should press into that. It could be as simple as this past Sunday, we had a family, one of their sons was baptized and the family is primarily Turkish and they are learning English. But just out of respect for them and out of the depth of their understanding and their new faith, we just put the baptism declaration up on the visuals in Turkish as well. It's just taking small steps that are personalized to help people deepen in their own understanding of Christ; whether that means having Turkish Bibles in the pew and not only English Bibles, it's those little details of expression that we can come alongside and say, "How can we serve you better as your church?"

Rob Thiessen:
That's awesome. So there's some attention to detail here. There's a hospitality aspect to it, being considerate of others. Right? Brian, you you do a few things at The Life Centre. Anybody that drives by would notice one thing, but tell us about The Life Center. How are you intentional?

Brian Stewart:
Yeah, well, I think you really have to give credit to Bindu. Bindu is the founding pastor. And with the church starting 12 years ago, he was very intentional. Bindu came from a Sikh background, became a follower of Jesus. So very much, there was a saying at the very beginning stages of the life center that Abbotsford does not need another caucasion church. So, right from the beginning, there was this in their DNA. This thing about being multicultural. So sort of a bit like you, I was just kind of handed this wonderful gift when I came. I haven't done a lot. A lot of it was done before I came. So on Sunday morning, that's right, we have a lot of flags outside our building. So our church is kind of a smaller building, smaller church, but our church is known as the church with the flags. My wife had a very serious car accident about a year ago. She's recovering, but she had to take a lot of taxis. And so all the taxi drivers she had, all the taxi drivers were Indo-Canadian, Punjabi, and she would get talking about the church and she would say, "You know, we're the church with the flags." And they'd say "Oh, yeah, I know that church, the church with the flags." So actually, even last Sunday, we had two people come in from the neighborhood; a lady from Jamaica and a fellow from a small African nation just came from the neighborhood because they saw the flags. So they'll come and there'll be flags all around and in the building as well. It's an old German church. So up on the front is, I don't read German, but I understand it says "worship the Lord" or "serve the Lord with joy". So we decided to put all the flags around the auditorium, from different nations, with that translation, "worship the Lord with joy" in that translation. So things like, in the service itself when we're singing worship songs, when it comes to the choruses, we'll sing one maybe in Swahili or Punjabi or Korean or French or Spanish or whatever the language may be. When someone prays in the service, they always pray in another language and translate it to English also. There's great things that the church does. When we do the offering, it's really cool. Well, it's kind of an African tradition. So we get up and you dance, if you want to, dance to give the offering and the kids are invited to bring a non-perishable food item that we would give away. So that's really cool. And even we have this baby dance when a baby's born, there is this, I think it's an African tradition where, you know, you hold the baby up and everyone in the congregation comes around and we start.

Rob Thiessen:
Mufasa?

Brian Stewart:
It's something like that, it sounds a little bit...(laughter) yeah, they start dancing, you know, is a lot of... it's people often describe the church as a fun church to be part of. But a part of it is because of the different nations that are there, in fact, a BIG part is because the different nations. So, one of the other things we do is the last Sunday of the month, we always focus on a different country. So, we try to interview someone from our congregation, from that country, spend some time just, you know, I'll usually bring some fun facts about the country. They'll share about the country, how Jesus is that work there. And then we usually move into small groups and pray for that nation, that country.

Rob Thiessen:
Now, that's interesting. So it's kind of like a missions moment, but it's more alive to the reality that the mission is here too, that country is here, the culture is represented here.

Brian Stewart:
Right in our church.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. So that's beautiful. Hey, let's delve into a little bit of a more challenging topic and that is to developing a leadership culture. So, we've indicated little things that a church can do, i.e., you know, translation and my own home church, North Langley - my wife's been working hard at this to facilitate - so they actually got the used equipment from Willingdon, who have upgraded their equipment. So they got their old microphone set and started offering Korean. And in there we have quite a few Spanish people. So even Walnut Grove, the white exodus community of the Lower Mainland, has become more, more multicultural and the church is taking steps. So translation, obviously, ethnic foods, culture, celebrating, little touches. What about working to integrate leadership? Cultures have different ways of viewing leadership. So where are you at in that process? What sort of challenges? Is that something you're pursuing? Having, you know, diversity or intercultural reality in your leadership? How's that going?

Rachel Wilson:
Yeah, I think, you know, there are a lot of things at Church on Five that had nothing to do with me, and I can't take credit for, but that is one area where Chris and I have tried to push things forward and say, "Listen, you know, we need to integrate this multiethnicities through all of our levels of leadership." And it can be something as simple as who's on the stage worshipping on a Sunday morning. And this goes it goes beyond different cultures, but it certainly includes that, it goes to young and old, it could go to someone with piercings and tattoos. I believe that there's a danger in the importance we've placed on the stage in North American worship. But there is, on the flip side, a power - that when we look onto the stage and we see someone like us, someone that we can relate to, it is powerful for people. It is, again coming back to that word, kind of an 'incarnational' way to say ALL people are welcome here and ALL voices are valued here. We've also tried to make sure that in our highest levels of leadership, whether it's the elder board or whether it's on our paid staff, that we have people from different nations. Just this year we were looking to hire a worship pastor. And I said to Chris, I said, "You know, Chris, I'm gonna pray that God will bring us just the right person. But even more than that, I would love for God to bring us someone who is Asian." And that just suits our cultural context. And I just thought it would be just a step forward in glorifying God and honoring our cultures. And He did! And we've got an awesome guy on staff and it was just the answer to our prayer.

Rob Thiessen:
Okay, awesome!

Rachel Wilson:
Yeah.

Brian Stewart:
That's good. Yeah that's neat.I think, as Rachel said too, the diversity is the key. So for us, one of our values is multicultural, but also diversity. So, our neighborhood of West Abbotsford is a little poor area. So we are seeing people from our community come as well. So we have a little ministry to our street friends, there's a little park right at the corner there. So I think that's important. Yeah, for me I think it's just, it's intentional. I was mentioning that to you before we started, that I think you just HAVE to be intentional about leadership. Because for me, my experience is that the default usually has been Caucasian people and even in the past, maybe, male Caucasian. So I think for us, that we we seek to be intentional. At the same time, you obviously - well I shouldn't say obviously - but you want someone who is, you know, mature, godly person, loves Jesus, has all the spiritual things going on. But I think just intentional, just intentionally having people from different backgrounds and different cultures on the leadership team. I think that's great about the staff, I think that's key as well, to have people reflected on the staff - people that are out front. I just think if I was in another country and I came in and I was a minority and if I saw someone, probably a white Canadian male, I'd probably maybe feel a little more at home and I just think is true for people from other countries. It's a welcoming. But I think, more than that, is that we have, I actually have something to learn from them. They do approach, they may (if they're actually, they were born in that country) they will approach leadership and church and all those things from a different background. And I think that's important. It is different. You know, sure, there's challenges, but it just makes it for a richer experience as well, I think.

Rob Thiessen:
So, in developing - and maybe, this is an awkward thing - but, what are some of the challenges that you have experienced in working together, like with different cultural backgrounds in leadership? You know, just to be honest, I mean, whenever you get a group of leaders together, for instance, one of the things you'll do, even if you're all from the same cultural background, is you'll do a personality test, a PSI or something, so that people can UNDERSTAND each other. Because in the leadership context, dealing with confrontation, difficult issues, personality types - which is, you know, just a microcosm of the differences between us - cause untold trouble. You know, people just misinterpret. Now you're talking about people who come from a completely different culture with a different mindset. And there are, I think, minefields, there's pitfalls, there's things to negotiate. In your experience, what are some of the challenges and what have you done to be intentional? So, say you get someone from another culture on your board, how do you work, then, to facilitate good communication, good understanding? And what if they have, like, a really different understanding of how leadership should function?

Rachel Wilson:
Yeah, I think that whether it's on a staff or elder board or in high level volunteer leadership in a church, you have to be committed to loving kingdom relationships. And so many times we sell ourselves short of sacrificial love. We have to learn how to listen and to communicate and to honor one another, even in our differences. And so when you're talking about groups of Christians, I think that being committed to one another and to the vision that God has given our church, that is a binding vision that has to overcome the areas that are difficult. One of the things that can be difficult in leading together, is that some cultures are not as confrontational as the Caucasian culture. So you know, you might come across people on the team who, like myself, I'm very blunt. I just like to say things as they are. And you have to really work to make sure you're getting the actual feedback that you want, because a lot of times, people from other cultures, they don't want to give you direct feedback, especially if it's gonna be hurtful to you. So, if I'm working with Christians, I have to set that vision for love - love of the kingdom, and also love for one another - as being more important than our differences.

Rob Thiessen:
That's good.

Brian Stewart:
Yeah, I think that's very helpful. We have a, probably like you as well, Rachel, we have a process for someone who is going to be a leader. We call the SLT Spiritual Leadership Team. So they're interviewed. There's a fairly lengthy the manual and the requirements, expectations are there. So, I think they kind of know going in. I don't think it's a necessarily a cultural thing. There's just some people who are wired to be on boards and serve in leadership and some people are not. So, yeah. And I don't think that's really a cultural thing. But I think, so you really want the right people that are gifted in leadership, I think is the key. I mean, we have been blessed where, I would say it's primarily been a very enriching experience, having different cultures. For some people that maybe has not worked. I would say it might not be so much a cultural thing, but a personality, a temperament that, you know, they were just more hands-on minded and being on a board really didn't suit them well. But I think, for different cultures, you really need to understand and welcome how they process things and just keep that in mind. And at the same time, try to think, you know, I don't know everything. And actually, they know a lot of things that I don't and they bring to the table some things that are going to make the church better in the long run. It may take more time and process it, but I think in the long run, it can make the church even more honouring to the Lord.

Rachel Wilson:
Yeah.

Rob Thiessen:
That's a good, good point he's just slipped in there. Patience. Patience.

Brian Stewart:
I'm not very good at that.

Rachel Wilson:
I also wanted to mention, Rob, before we move on that, you know, we do face dealing with with prejudice and especially when you're talking about people who aren't Christian. We have a community meal on Wednesday nights. And, you know, anybody from the community can come. It's probably about 40 percent Caucasian and 60 percent Mandarin-speaking Chinese. So, not the same Chinese population that would be coming to our church on Sunday. We do translation. We do try and serve everybody with honour. But often there is friction because of prejudice either from Chinese people who consider themselves more Canadian than Mandarin. Sometimes the prejudice is from Chinese people to other Chinese people, and sometimes the prejudice is from the Caucasian guests towards the Mandarin guests. And so, that is something that we have to navigate very carefully, because, of course, we can't expect that people who don't follow Jesus are going to understand the kind of love and unity that we're called to. But we still want to maintain that healthy environment of our Wednesday night meals.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really kind of missiology that you're thinking is teaching the church to think like missionaries to say, "Oh, let's be courteous and thoughtful of the other people around." And if we have a superiority mindset like "our way is better", that's very challenging. But I like what you said, Rachel, the importance of setting out clearly what is the vision of this community. And I remember visiting, actually, this was years ago, when I went to visit the New Hope Community Church in Honolulu and Pastor Wayne Cordero. And they put on such a fantastic hospitality! And I think, whether I said this, maybe I said it to him, you know, it's like, "Well, maybe this is just your Hawaiian, sort of, 'tourism' culture expressed in your church." And he looked at me, goes, "No, it's biblical" he said, "it's not like just our culture, so that you have an excuse because that's not your cultural way. This is the biblical thing." And he said, "it's important in our community that ALL cultures correct back to scripture." So, and I think that's what you're saying, Rachel, there's a kingdom overriding vision here that transcends how, you know, one person says, "Well, you know, I'm German and we talk straight." you know, "We shoot straight." Which is, you know, code for "I'm rude and deal with it." And then another person from another background just would, they don't talk straight, they talk to the butcher and the butcher talks to you about what they wanted to say. And both cultures have something to learn. That's not a Matthew 18. Neither is, you know, a true Matthew 18 principle. Like, well, we should be direct, but we should be gracious and loving in our speech. So, I think that's so important. One resource that I just wanted to mention to the listeners, and this came up at Global Leadership Summit a few years ago. A woman there presented, named Erin Meyer, and she wrote a book called "The Culture Map". And through her research, she maps out the various cultures and highlights their differences. And it's really, like it's mind-boggling to see it on a map and to see, you know, you can see how the different cultures react and where their rubbing points are, like where these cultures will have friction with each other. And it seems to me that it just would be helpful to be intentional. You know, as you have a Korean joining your leadership team, say, "Well, I need to understand, you know, how this person thinks." And like you said, it's a slow process, but maybe we'll all learn. And I think it's exciting that the church is moving on. And I'm really, I think as a M.B. family, we're very excited to watch you lead the way in your churches. And I hope that our broadcast can be an encouragement to the other churches to think intentionally, look around their community and say, "how would it honour God if we had greater cultural diversity and honouring of one another in our community?" So, thanks for being with us, and blessings in your ministry.

Good. All right. Hey, stay tuned for more podcasts coming up. And yeah, we're hoping you're enjoying it. So we'll talk to you soon. Bye.

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