BCMB 043 - Expansion of MAID in Canada.mp3: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

BCMB 043 - Expansion of MAID in Canada.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Suzie Warneke:
How many of us have been on the psych ward and experienced that? And I know for my husband and I, that was just heart wrenching to leave him there. But who do I share that with? Who has walked these halls in this hospital and knows why I'm crying all the way to the parking lot?

Gloria Woodland:
Anyone who has mental health struggles will be able to choose MAID, be able to say, Yeah, I've had enough of this and I don't want to keep on living. And now they have a legally sanctioned option to end their lives. And so that door is being opened to them without any additional guidelines in place.

INTRO:
Welcome to the BCMB podcast, Pastor to Pastor. This is a podcast by the British Columbia Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches. We want to help equip and encourage pastors, churches and anyone else who wants to listen in and be more effective in their ministry. This is episode 43 - expansion of MAID in Canada with Wally Nickel, Gloria Woodland and Suzie Warneke.

Rob Thiessen:
Hey everyone, it's Rob Thiessen with the BCMB Pastor to Pastor podcast and it's great to have you with us online or listening wherever you're picking up this podcast. But today I'm here at Pastor Cory Alstad's office at North Langley Community Church, and I have three awesome guests with me. We're kind of a little tight in here, so we're hoping we don't knock any of Cory's instruments over or make a clash or a clang. But our guests are with us for a, you know, a topic that I think is really important for our community and that they are all involved in in either a direct or indirect way. And honestly, we're exploring today a topic that's heavy on our heart and that affects us across Canada and that we are praying that everybody will just receive some encouragement and hopefully some insight on it. And our topic is MAID, Medical Assistance in Dying, which, you know, came about as a legal option in Canada in 2016 and has just grown exponentially in our country, but a lot under the radar. And I realized a long time ago that there was a lot about this that I don't know. And so we're going to talk about that. But before we jump into that, I want to welcome my guests. Suzie Warneke and Gloria Woodland and Wally Nickel are with me here. And I'm going to ask each of them to say hello and introduce themselves by telling us a little bit about the community that helped shape them and shape their faith. So, Suzie, you take it.

Suzie Warneke:
All right. Well, hello. Thanks for having me here today. Yeah, My name is Suzie and I was born into a non-Christian home, but about five years of age. We had a knock on our door and it was the bus ministry coming out of Surrey Alliance Church. And so my mom and her boyfriend at the time said, sure, take our girls off to church and so off my sister and I went and we were going for probably about a year or so before my mom kind of thought maybe I should find out where my girls are going. And so there my mom came to have a relationship with Jesus and got married, and so did my stepdad, then committed his life to Jesus and my sister and I as well through the Sunday school ministry at Surrey Alliance. So it's kind of a fun thing to think about. Not too many bus ministries now in these days because I don't know how many parents would say, sure, take my child. But for our family, it was a real blessing. And so then throughout the years, I attended summer camps and that was a real place of joy and a place where I could grow in my faith with my peers. And yeah, now my husband and I have been married and have been attending North Langley Community Church for over 26 years, and this has been a great place for us, for our kids, to develop a relationship with Jesus and find support and encouragement along the way.

Rob Thiessen:
Thanks, Susie. That is fantastic to just hear how an invitation became a, you know, a life defining change in for your whole family. Amazing. Yeah. Gloria, tell us a little bit about your journey.

Gloria Woodland:
I'm Gloria Woodland, I'm associate professor at MB seminary, and it's a delight to be here with you today. Like Suzie, my journey started when I was a child, and I'm a pastor's kid, so it might have been a little different than Suzie's, but I still had to make that individual choice for Jesus. And I did that when I was a young child. And then I got to that point in my teenage years where I didn't want to listen to Dad anymore as my pastor and had to sort out faith more on my own. And I'm very grateful that people came along side of me. And there's one particular couple that I now call my spiritual parents because they saw me struggling as a teenager and reached out and they always made space for me and space where I felt safe to share not just the good things of my life, but the things I was questioning. And and they loved me. They shared the love of God with me on a constant, constant basis and helped me to grow in my faith. And one of the things that they always taught me was that if I loved the Lord, it was important that I got out and was active and shared that and let people see my witness. And so as I matured, that witness became into ministry and then into hospital chaplaincy and which was still ministry. And I now consider my teaching at the seminary ministry as well.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah, definitely. Thanks, Gloria. Wally?

Wally Nickel:
Yeah, it's good to be here. I'm Wally. I'm pastor at Jericho Ridge Community Church. I grew up in Vancouver. My parents or our whole family, culturally Mennonite. But when I was in my early teens, both my mom and dad came to know Jesus personally, and that was a defining moment for me. I was 13 and 15 at the time when both mom and then dad gave their lives to Jesus. And then coincidentally at the same time having some high school friends who also attended the church that my mom and dad started attending in our community. And so those friends invited me into their youth group. And for the first time, I was in a community of peers that were showing unconditional love, acceptance, welcome. And it radically changed my outlook on life. And so I gave my life to Christ at Sherbrooke Mennonite Church in Vancouver and was wonderfully discipled. Leaders took me under their wings, helped me to grow in my faith, helped me to understand and get to know my gifts and just encouraged me into leadership. And so after Bible school I had the privilege of being called back to pastor in in my home church and to be able to be a part of that community as a young pastor still growing, still learning, and then also being able to turn around and pour into other people's lives. So that set me on the course for pastoral ministry for all the rest of my adult years.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah, that's an amazing story. I think we would know some family. You know, our family had friends, the Niebuhrs were at Sherbrooke Church. But it's interesting, like Gloria, you said you grew up in a pastor's family. Of course, I've been a pastor and I got kids and I'm thinking, yeah, that's right. You know, there's only so much pastor you can handle and you need someone else to talk to. And I was always we were always grateful for people who helped encourage our children in their faith journey, too. Right? And so it's great. Thank you so much for all being here. And I think maybe at the start we'll just explain a little bit about the context. Now, Gloria, you're here, you're in chaplaincy and we've done a podcast before on the topic of MAID. You and Sharon Simpson. She's our BCMB moderator and has worked in the area of Seniors Care for many, many years. We talked about this probably two years ago or so. But Wally and Suzie have something in common. So, Suzie, why don't you tell us a little bit about what it is that you and Wally have been involved in here at North Langley, And it's a partnership, right, with Jericho Ridge, which is Wally's Home Church where you're pastoring Wally and his wife, Sylvia, were a part of North Langley for years as well. But tell us about the Living Well ministry that you're involved in.

Suzie Warneke:
Sure, I'd love to. Yeah. So Living Well is a peer support group that meets here at North Langley Community Church, and it's a peer support group for those living with and/or caring for someone with a mental health challenge. And this group started back in 2015. So we're in our eighth year of ministry and yeah, we meet twice a month and provide hope is our goal for those that are on this journey and at various points in the journey, some come and they're really struggling. And whether it's they've just received a diagnosis or their loved one has, all the way to others who have been living with a mental health challenge for years and while they may not be struggling, are still looking for a place of community. And yeah, so together we're just doing life together and sharing our experiences and sharing. Yeah. Really. Where is there hope in this journey? Because it can feel really lonely, scary, frightening. But yeah, we've learned together that God is with us when we're in the valleys and when we're in the peaks. And so sometimes in those valleys you need others around you to point you to Jesus because it's hard to see Him in the darkness. But we know He's there. And so, yeah, it's been a real privilege. And Wally and the Jericho Ridge community, along with other church communities, we're not just, not even just the two of us. There's a few other churches from around that are involved in just leading this group together.

Rob Thiessen:
Wally, what kind of people come out, we're going to keep confidences here. Obviously, you're not going to name names, but who are the who are the kind of people that come out and how are they impacted by this?

Wally Nickel:
Yeah, I mean, we have people who come quite regularly and have come year after year. We have those who come for seasons and then we have drop in. It's not a you don't have to register, you don't have to sign up for anything long term. You can come if you're struggling that Tuesday and you know of us and you just want to drop in, you can. That's part of the beauty of the of the group. And as Suzie said, it's people of all walks, all demographics. We have people who are seniors, all the way down to university students. We've had some events where we've brought in guest speakers who are keynoting on youth or children, and we've invited youth to some of those events. And they've come so it's such a broad range. Mental health affects everybody in some capacity.

Rob Thiessen:
So if you're helping like a support group for people who are dealing with those who have mental health, like so I'm assuming some would be parents, where their children are having mental health issues, but you're also helping support people who are experiencing mental health. Like do you mix those groups? Is that all one big group that comes together or how does that function?

Wally Nickel:
Yeah, we start every session as a large group and bring in a guest speaker, a resource speaker, and then once that initial large group setting is done, then we break off into optional groups. We call them living room and family rooms. So those living with mental health challenges and the family rooms for those who care for perhaps a family member or a loved one that's living with a mental health challenge. Okay.

Rob Thiessen:
Okay, that makes sense. Here's another question just about this kind of ministry. Shows how ignorant I am about, I'm a fan, but ignorant of what you're doing. But like it's a pretty intimidating field to get into. You know, it feels like experts don't know what they're doing. I've often felt that with people going, Wow, so the doctor prescribed this and now that and then that and it feels like, dude, are they really is it just guesswork? So with all that uncertainty about how to treat and assess these problems. Is that intimidating? Or how do you how do you how do you focus? Because neither are you. You're not psychiatrist. You're not counselors. You said one thing. You bring in outside help, which I think could be helpful, but also it would require some screening, I guess. But how do you, how do you tackle like how did you overcome the sort of intimidation factor? Just to get started and go ahead, take a shot at it. Suzie, you look eager to weigh in.

Suzie Warneke:
I would say definitely when we started, my husband and I started together with a with a team back in 2015. And it was scary. And I think the fear comes in that, our peers are very vulnerable. They're in a very vulnerable place. But as we always say, this is God's ministry and so we are just following His lead. And so there's lots of prayer over this ministry and we're a peer support group. So right from the get go say we stand up front. My husband stands up front and does announcements and says we are not here as experts in this room tonight, even though some might be, there are some counselors who have chosen to make living well part of their their ministry. But when they come to living well, they're coming as a peer. And so we just want to be a piece of the bigger picture of support and care that's needed when you're on a mental health journey. So yeah, we are here as peers, just walking alongside and yeah, as Wally said, we like to bring in some of the counselors and occupational therapists and psychologists because we also believe knowledge is powerful. And so that's why at the beginning we always have a speaker to come to help give us some insight and some understanding because that reduces a lot of the fear too, when you can understand what anxiety and depression and bipolar is. But then when we break into our small groups, it is about just let's lock arms and do this together, yeah, we're here for, to support, and to encourage and to pray for one another.

Wally Nickel:
And I think that's our biggest. Like we are not professionals, but we have, I think, something even more profound in that we're living with, we're in the trenches with that. I know that ten years ago, when I out of lived experience and when I had my mental health crisis and I came back to the church and one of the things that I experienced outside of the church was being in a group setting. And I thought in that group setting, that was at Surrey Memorial Hospital, I thought, why aren't we doing group settings like this in the church? And so going back to the church said, Hey, let's do something like this. And the first reaction by everybody was, No, leave that to the professionals. You don't know what you're getting yourself into and liability and all that kind of stuff. And so I tried that in presenting that in two different churches, got the same reaction when I came to Jericho Ridge, one of the things that I came with was the on the premise was, Hey, I want to be able to live out my experience in real time with real people and be vulnerable that way. And if there's an openness to that, then I'd be willing to come. And there was a great openness to that at Jericho Ridge. And so presenting that idea again, there was support. And then that's how we got in connection with with Living Well, we realized we don't need to start from scratch. They've started and so we can start to come alongside. But really the big thing to offer our people is saying we are living with it as well, whether we're caring for someone or whether we're living with it, like myself. We are in the trenches and and we've come through a healing journey or we're on the healing journey. We may be a little bit further along than you are. Let's walk together so you don't have to be professional. You just have to have a heart for the people and have some experience involved in with it.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's really good. Wally and for our listeners, so explaining a little bit the rationale about why I invited the three of you and then introduce the topic of MAID, how they intersect and with the Living Well ministry, it seems to me you have you're addressing a practical need and in Canada currently MAID has been extended and is set to extend in the spring of this year to be an option for people struggling with mental health issues. And that's deeply troubling. And we want to talk a little bit about what is actually going on and what that looks like in our country. But then to hear from Living Well, to say, oh, actually the church can offer some help and support. So, you know, my goal in the conversation today is also to help our pastors think both about how we should be responding to the issue in our country. And it's like frankly, very bewildering. And I often feel powerless, I think I don't know what I can do. How much effect can I have? What kind of approach is wise? And we'll talk a little bit about that. But then I think, well, practically, though, like if the government is going this way, what can the church do to help meet the needs of people and broken lives? It strikes me in what you're talking about that the peer support group where there's conversation, it reminds me of Larry Crabb, who, you know, after all his years of biblical counseling, started writing books on the power that happens in Christian conversation, where people speak deep and spirit led words to one another, that are not professional. They're Christian. I care. There's hope. Where we listen attentively to the Spirit in community and support one another. How does that impact lives? Like tell us again, keeping confidences. Like, how important is this for people? You've alluded to the fact that, you know, you're on a healing journey and that helps. But how have you seen it impact people who come, who participate? What sort of fruit do you see coming out of it?

Wally Nickel:
Yeah, I think one of the beautiful things of coming together as a group that is so incredibly diverse and quite often it's your first time meeting somebody, is by the end of the session, you generally can look across the room and there's a deep connection because you get it and they get you. I think of one person who came last year to our group. Older gentleman, retired, elite, Canadian armed forces sniper. And think of how different he and I our walks of lives are. Mennonite Anabaptist pacifist pastor, spending my whole life in the church and he's spent his whole life out in the world, in the field you know in the armed forces in sniper blinds and and coming home with all the PTSD and such. But he shared his story and I shared part of mine in that setting. And we looked across the room and we got it, like we knew what the other one was experiencing. Even though we're vastly different, we got that we were walking with Mental Health Challenge.

Rob Thiessen:
And why is that so important for like, what is it that people you know, who are in this situation? Why? Why is that so important to them that they.

Wally Nickel:
A sense of belonging, a sense of of of an understanding of my part, a strong part of what's my identity and to be able to be vulnerable. So much of the healing journey is to be able to be vulnerable and share what's going on in my life. And for that person to be able to do that immediately connects them with a group and says, Oh, I may not belong in the rest of the world out there, or people may think I should do this or that, but here I can just come and be me. And for half an hour or an hour, other people around me aren't judging me. They're actually getting it.

Rob Thiessen:
Okay, so people, let's just take a family, people in the family room who are dealing with a child with mental health issues. Is that a particularly challenging sort of issue for people to get support on? Like, Yeah, talk to us a little bit about that.

Suzie Warneke:
Yeah, I would say for the for the family members, one, they feel very alone.

Rob Thiessen:
Why? Why do they feel so alone?

Suzie Warneke:
Because a lot of times we don't talk about it. So you can't it's not like you can go to your friend and say, Yeah, So my son was in the psych ward last night and they can't relate to that. And they have no comprehensive of even when you say the psych ward, what does that even mean? Like how many of us have been on the psych ward and experienced that? And I know for my husband and I to drop off our son, that was just heart wrenching to leave him there. But who do I share that with? Who has walked these halls in this hospital and knows why I'm crying all the way to the parking lot? So to come and feel like, oh, I'm not alone, you've done this. And even the celebrating together, like I celebrate when my son has a shower. Well, he's 29 years old. If I said to my neighbor, I'm so excited today, what are you excited about? My son had a shower. They're going to look at me and think, you're excited that he, like, doesn't all shouldn't he just have a shower? But for my son, that's a real achievement in his day. So to come to a group like Living Well and they're all going to clap with me because they get it and I just feel like that's so important. And as parents, there's a lot of guilt and shame. Did I do something wrong? Doctors start to talk about genetics. Well, is this in your family? And it's quite common. But then you feel like I've done this to my child. This was my fault. But again, be in a room and go, Oh yeah, we're in this together and we're learning together. We're going to care for you when you're having your bad day. I'm here to hold up your arms and say, You got this and we can do this together.

Rob Thiessen:
Oh, that's incredible. Thanks, Suzie. And I think we can all yeah, we can resonate with that. It's a, you know, it's one thing to say, you know, my child has leukemia or it has this or that, you know, then that's a track that people can identify, sympathize. But mental health just is just a loaded, loaded issue where there's guilt and shame and uncertainty and embarrassment and all of that tied up. So creating a safe place where people go, no, I these people get me and I can get support. I see that as as being valuable. Go ahead, Wally. Yeah.

Wally Nickel:
Such a big part of that is being able to offer hope. It's not just standing alongside, but especially in mental health. You, you, if you're living with it, you have those moments and sometimes they're frequent where you need someone else standing in the gap with you, you know, holding up your arms, helping you get out of bed, all those types of things. And to be able to say to somebody, you know, I have been on the psych ward and I did go in there not knowing if I wanted to come out or if I wanted to end my life. But I'm standing on the other side of it because people loved me and cared for me and God orchestrated amazing things even in the psych ward, by bringing Christian professionals around me that offered hope. And so I'm here to tell you that there is hope.

Rob Thiessen:
Oh, I like that, Wally. That's good. Hope that would be a good theme for our whole podcast here. We're talking about hope, aren't we? Because when we shift over and let's do that now, let's talk a little bit about MAID and where this intersection of mental health is and what's happened with MAID in Canada. MAID feels hopeless. And it is a it feels like an abandonment of hope for people. And so Living Well is a place of hope for people. That's really awesome. So, Gloria, we mentioned before that we did a podcast a while back, probably a couple of years ago on MAID. And I'll just say for my part, I mean, I would read occasionally because I read right wing conservative news, I read the National Post. Who knew that that was a right wing conservative? I don't even know if it is, but honestly, I struggle to find any media nowadays that just doesn't seem like it's just lecturing me with a point of view. It's and so it was reading National Post articles that they tend to highlight a few things that were happening with MAID occasionally and that I was listening to a right wing American podcast and they had a news about what happened is happening in Canada, and I was just like shocked and thinking, really, this is what is happening with doctors and young people and parents having to fight the system to protect their children? So it's gotten, it's accelerated. So, Gloria, from your perspective, you know, you're an academic and a professor in chaplaincy. Talk to us a little bit about how MAID has rolled out in Canada and what's on the horizon for us.

Gloria Woodland:
MAID has rolled out very quickly. And the amount when you look at the numbers and you look at how many people have said yes, MAID is where I'm going to find my hope because I can't find any living hope right now. It's astounding. It really is astounding. To the end of 2021. That's the most current data that Statistics Canada is giving out. But to the end of 2021, since MAID was legalized in 2016, there were 21,589 Canadians who chose death. Medically assisted death. And I think that's an important number for us to recognize, not just the size of it, but when we think about that many individuals, people whose lives are surrounded by families who maybe didn't have Living Well to attend, to hold up their arms, to help support them.

Rob Thiessen:
And Gloria, I think if I recall looking at the numbers back in 2016, the number was, I think less than 1000 people. And it's grown so much that the most recent numbers, it's like a shocking acceleration year over year.

Gloria Woodland:
It is. It is. From legislation back in 2016. Like I said, to the October 31st of 2018, in that small period of time, there was 6749. But then in 2019, we added to that 5631. That's one year alone, 5631 deaths, boosting up our totals all the time. This is always raising that total of individuals who didn't see any hope. And so we're already over 21,000 because that was a year ago. So we must be hitting 25, 26,000 by now. It's a steady increase.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. What I also was looking at was percentages that I think that the Post had had put in there, that in British Columbia in 2021 was 4.8% of all deaths were MAID deaths. We're the highest province. I think Quebec is also quite high. And of all the places in B.C., Vancouver Island is seven over 7% of all deaths. And this is happening again year over year, almost apparently almost doubling the number of people. So what's on the horizon for the spring, the government made a decision that's going to be enacted in the spring. Can you describe that that development with MAID?

Gloria Woodland:
Okay. So on March the 17th of 2023, which is just around the corner, just a few months away, anyone who has mental health struggles will be able to choose MAID, be able to say, Yeah, I've had enough of this and I don't want to keep on living. And now they have a legally sanctioned option to end their lives. And so that door is is being opened to them without any additional guidelines in place. The law was passed over a year ago saying that this is when it was going to happen. The delay was to create safeguards. And to this day, those safeguards haven't been released yet. They're not out. The only difference for someone with a mental health issue and someone who has death in the foreseeable future is the number of days you have to wait. So when someone with a mental health issue says, Yeah, I want to have MAID, they have to wait three months, 90 days before the procedure can be completed. The sad thing for me with that is, we want to encourage them to get mental health services. But the wait list for mental health services is longer than the than the waiting period for MAID. And so.

Gloria Woodland:
They're lost. Do I want to continue knowing that there'e help way down the road, or do I want to just say I've had enough and I can have MAID in three months?

Wally Nickel:
Yeah. Yeah. And one of the hard things about that, as someone who lives with mental health challenges is that in those moments where you are seriously contemplating, you know, the viability of your own existence, whether or not you want to end your life or not, you are looking and hoping for one thing, one thing. If someone can give you one thing to hang on to. And I always say to people we are body, mind, spirit, relational beings and our care team should be, have all of those core parts of our being active. And so if you think of your the physical part of your being, then you're looking at maybe having your doctor, your GP, the medical system as part of that care team. If that's the one piece that gives you something and it ends up being MAID.

Wally Nickel:
You're not going to think 90 days and beyond. You are going to be zoned in and say, that's my answer. That's the future. And if nobody. Yeah, the doctor said, And if nobody else comes alongside you and offers you anything else viable in that time or more convincing, it's so easy to be fixated on that because that's your that now you have a goal and now you have a sense of purpose. As weird and as convoluted as that sounds, you now have a sense of purpose again.

Rob Thiessen:
That was, I think it was listening to a daily wire program. Again, that's an American news conservative news broadcast. They were talking about a situation and I think it was Ontario. It was a young man. I think it was in about 2022. He was struggling with diabetes and had lost sight in one eye. He was a fitness guy, but he was had lost sight in one eye and losing it in the other. And he was despairing of life, didn't think it was worth living, had gone and been approved for MAID was in that 30 day period. His mother found out about it and went on high alert, went to local media, just started her best you know her best efforts to reverse this. The doctors backed away. Who had. You know. Who had advised him and were going to perform the MAID. And interesting thing in this situation, they talked to the son. They got him on the news. And this young man said how annoyed he was at his mother for it. And it was just like you described, Wally. He was very singular about this was going to be his solution. But then they followed up. They had a follow up conversation with him. This was in November. And he had met someone online. And so the news commentator was talking to him. And he was he had had one date already and he was going on another date. And he was so excited. And that's kind of where they left it. And you just watch that.

Rob Thiessen:
And again, it's an illustration. When a person's in a mental health thing, they're just, they're looking for a lifeline, something to give them some hope. And that could be as simple as a friend, a community, a date. And has something to live for. And yeah, it was just shocking. And if it wouldn't have been for his mother's intervention, his date of approval, I think had been in the fall. It would have come and gone if she wouldn't. And he would have his life would have ended. Another thing that I heard on the news, too, was a number of veterans complaining that they struggle also with getting care because of finances, I guess, and the medical system. And, you know, in Canada, our medical system is amazing, but also fails a lot of people. We all know firsthand stories about that. And they're getting offered to end their life as a solution. It seems anecdotal, you know, and I know people do this at their hair on fire over anecdotal things but on it doesn't seem like there's, evidence. And Gloria, maybe you've heard about this, too. But this is another thing I was reading in the news that the government and the medical society and I don't know if this is in Ontario, I don't know if it's in every province are not publishing the cause of death when it's MAID. Can you talk to talk to me about that or tell us.

Gloria Woodland:
Yeah. On the death certificate, they don't put that MAID was the cause of their death if they have an underlying illness. So for those who are choosing MAID because as the law says, death was in the foreseeable future, then it's going to list their cancer diagnosis or whatever it was that was causing their terminal illness. Right. It's not going to say MAID. And I think that's one of the things that we need to ask for to be changed. There are there is.

Rob Thiessen:
What's wrong with that, for just for our readers who may not immediately connect the dots.

Gloria Woodland:
So it says that I died of cancer. No, I didn't die of cancer. I chose to die sooner than the cancer would take me.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. And in the interest for the rest of us, is the country has no awareness then of how many people are actually dying.

Gloria Woodland:
So we'll give statistics that say this many people died of cancer. And that person will be included in that. But what they actually died of was MAID, right. Their choice to end their life before the cancer took them. And so there needs to be space to say that, yes, they chose MAID they did have an underlying diagnosis as well. And so that would be a real important piece to put to put on the death certificate. Right.

Rob Thiessen:
So this way, with this policy, our country can continue to have accelerated MAID without public awareness. Right. People are not aware that so many people are dying, so it doesn't hit the radar.

Wally Nickel:
So I'm curious, what would diagnose or what would the death certificate say for someone with mental health?

Gloria Woodland:
It would still say they had a mental health issue or, yeah, it needs to say that they chose MAID.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah that's a bit unknown yet because we're just that's yeah that's not supposed to happen but.

Gloria Woodland:
You know normally they may say suicide due to mental health issues. What would they say now. Just mental health issues. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It hasn't happened yet.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. Another piece that I thought was interesting that came through the news and I think this was a National Post article, they mentioned that in Ontario, at least there in the Medical Association, there's a directive that says that physicians are obligated, obligated to tell people about the option of MAID. Is that true across Canada? Is that true here in B.C.? Or like.

Gloria Woodland:
I think it varies province by province. They're obligated to tell them about MAID. In Ontario they are also obligated if they don't want to do the procedure of MAID, they are obligated to make a referral. So Christian doctors are in a struggle on that one as well. So there's the piece of I'm obligated to offer this to you and I'm obligated to make a referral to someone who will do it if I won't. And it hasn't come into all provinces yet, but it is planning stages. Yeah, I think, the obligation to offer is really under a lot of discussion in the original guidelines for MAID. It had to be a voluntary choice. So unless the patient brought it up, no one else in the medical team could bring it up. It was up to the patient to say, tell me about this. I'd like to consider it. The challenge to that became that if you don't tell me about all my options, how can I make a choice for one option? And so MAID had to be included as an option. So we'll give you a health diagnosis and say, Here are your options. You can have this kind of treatment or this kind of treatment go through this procedure or MAID and then it's up to me to make the decision. The fear in that is that as soon as people hear that MAID is an option, and that the medical team has said you can complete your life, well what's the point of my life then? Why should I have treatment? Yeah. Do I matter enough to have treatment?

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. And Gloria, you know, you can talk to us a little bit about this, but of course, in you know, I teach seminars with the pastors about the power dynamics and what's involved in pastoral abuse and how when a pastor says something to someone that they have authority over spiritual, it's not the same as a peer. It like, so what's the power dynamics? When a doctor says to you, you could consider this?

Gloria Woodland:
Well, we've all heard about white coat syndrome. You know, in my own life, I had a discussion with my doctor about white coat syndrome just recently, and that was around blood pressure and how blood pressure goes up when you're in the doctor's office. So if sitting in front of my doctor, who I've known for years, makes my blood pressure go up, imagine what happens to me when my doctor suggests I have MAID. The power there is the statement in the power is very, very, very, very large.

Rob Thiessen:
Very difficult. So, yeah. And you know, Gloria, before we started the recording, you were just giving a little illustration that you heard of MAID happening in a church building.

Gloria Woodland:
Yes. Yes. And this was, you know, here in Canada to think that in a Christian church MAID would be performed is just something that we in this room just all shook our heads at. But this woman, faith was a big part of her life and she wanted her friends to gather with her and to celebrate what life she had had. And so they came together in the church fellowship room and sat her in the middle of circles. And the most intimate circle of her family was around her and then her most closest friends, and then the broader church family gathered around. So it was a circles around this woman and they all shared the value of who she was and what she meant to them and wished her the best as she went on her way into eternity. And then the large broad circles left the room and it was just the most intimate circle and the physician performing MAID. And it happened there in the church building.

Rob Thiessen:
So, you know, like with so many issues, that we're dealing with today in society, so people feel strongly about this and there are reasons why people feel strongly about that. And again, not rocket science here. But if you've got like an incurable disease and life is full of pain and all of that and you feel worthless or depressed, the internal feelings that would motivate a person to end their life, that's not new. I mean, people commit suicide. So it's not surprising there that they would feel this way. And then I think people who maybe don't, I don't know why, but maybe they haven't thought through all the issues think, well, let's just go with that. I think because as a society, we validate so much how a person feels and what they what they sense we have to honour that, they're being authentic and true to themselves. So this creates a very challenging situation, I think, for our pastors who are preaching and thinking about, well, how do I address this in the church? What are some of the things that you think would be like let's talk about preaching. Living Well is obviously, it turns out, an important response I think. Even though you never started it for that reason. What are some other ways that the church should be alert and be protecting and helping our people and our society? Think about this. Do you have any thoughts or wisdom to share with our listeners on this?

Wally Nickel:
I think a couple of things come to mind. I think as pastors, as preachers, we need to we need to really work through and process issues, theological issues. What does it mean to be created in the image of God? What does it mean to have the stamp of the Almighty embedded in my spirit, in my being, and to be created in that image and to be created for purpose and to also be in a place where I recognize that my creator is the one who not only has the power to create me, but he also has the power then to deem when my life here on earth ends and I get to be with him. We really need to process that in today's day and age and we need to speak that and help our people in our congregations understand that.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah, yeah. What you're describing, Wally, is preaching that includes a life narrative so you can help orient people in the bigger issues, the deeper issues. Not to say that's wrong, you shouldn't do that. It should be illegal. You're trying to help your people back up and answer a very deep question about who am I and what is the story that I'm a part of and what gives meaning to my life ultimately? Of course, that kind of preaching is super foundational for a whole myriad of issues that people are struggling with, including gender identity questions, you know, more all kinds of moral and ethical issues, too. So to ground them in a in with constantly reinforcing a biblical narrative of life, this is who you are. This is who God is. This is the story you're living.

Wally Nickel:
And to have the additional component of saying, this is who I am. So as a preacher, not just putting it out there as something that exists beyond me, but as a as a speaker saying, this is who I am, here's my story. So if I'm living with mental health challenges, I'm going to be vulnerable and I'm going to share that with you and I'm going to share what the struggles are like, and I'm going to share what the low lows are like. And I'm going to share what the hope and the healing is like. And if that's not a part of my story, then I'm going to introduce you to someone who is. And have them share their stories.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. So that's another component that addresses not the issue, but the pain that people are feeling. Because if we just preach as an issue, which happens so often, like on abortion, like, boom, got an answer, it's wrong, it's this, that or the other thing. And we're not dealing with the pain that's there from someone who experienced it or has been close to it or struggles with their pregnancy. So yeah, that's really good advice. So sharing stories that help people go, Oh, this isn't just a person who's addressing this as an issue. This is a person who is living and recognizing just how painful and hard this is. That's good.

Gloria Woodland:
It's about that culture of caring. We have to have that in the church for people who are in the church, as well as for those who are out of the church and looking to the church for support. And I think one of the big things we have to do there, you know, it's already been discussed about having these places where people can come and it's normalized for them. But one of the things we need to say as believers, as Christian leaders, as pastors, is how do we get comfortable with having these conversations? How do we make a safe space where somebody can say to us without our judgment, landing on them, I'm considering MAID I want to talk about MAID, how is the church going to be a safe space for that? Because it's people in the church as well as people out of the church who are looking to the church. And we need to be able to be skilled and comfortable at opening that conversation and letting people express their pain. That's part of their life narrative. And we need to know how to respond appropriately. We can give them Scripture, we can teach that we're made in the image of God that Wally, as you put that divine stamp, is upon us. But how do we do that without the individual feeling judged? And that takes some skill and a lot of prayer and practice.

Rob Thiessen:
I think of one, I think of one guideline for that. And it comes to mind in my conversations with Bill Henson on the Posture Shift. And there would be lots of issues around language and communication with LGBTQ people that I had questions about. It's like, Really? Why would you say that, that's not truthful or that's not accurate? And Bill would say, but when you say that with someone about their language, you're going to create a wall. And so he and I said, well, so what would you say? And he just would always steer me back to ask questions, be curious. Help me understand that. Why do you think that? Why are you feeling that? And of course, that's a powerful way. Not that you just end up there, but it's a powerful way to build a bridge with people and then to create what you're describing.

Gloria Woodland:
One of the most simplest ways is to call it MAID, legally, that's its name. Don't call it assisted suicide. Call it MAID, that right away takes down that wall. Oh, you're trying to tell me I'm doing suicide? That's, you know, in the church's eyes. I know that's wrong. So let's call it by its legal name. It doesn't hurt us and it helps them. So that's a simple thing we can do. Yeah. I think one of the things that we need to realize that has come up in my studies and I want to do more research in this area, is that nine out of ten people who request a conversation around MAID do not proceed to choose MAID. So we need to know how to have those conversations, because if we can have the conversation, those nine people are going to choose MAID. So how do we equip ourselves as a church for that.

Rob Thiessen:
To help them think through it and not just react with shock or judgment.

Gloria Woodland:
I have pain physically, emotionally, spiritually, socially. So MAID is the answer. So how do we sit with those people who are hurting? Living Well is doing it. You know, when I hear the description of what's happening in your group, my heart gets excited because it's saying to people it's okay to hurt. And that's what we as a church need to do. It's that holy Saturday moment, right? We have to live in that Holy Saturday. Good Friday. We know what happened, the pain, the sorrow. We also as believers know of the resurrection. But imagine how it was on the Saturday between when they didn't know. That's where we have to sit with people and we have to be comfortable in the Holy Saturday moments.

Rob Thiessen:
Sunday was, two Sundays ago I think. Janet was preaching here at North Langley and the video testimony was a Korean woman who had, did she have rheumatoid arthritis or crippling arthritis when she was a child? And her pain was so constant that she despaired of life as a child and wanted to end her life. Tried to end her life. And and then she shared about how someone introduced her to Christ and hope started coming into her life. And then following the hope, slow progress. So moving from being in a bed to sitting in a wheelchair to now walking with a walker and being an adult and but also having a very realistic view of life, saying, I still have a lot of pain, but I live with hope. And the hope isn't just for the healing or freedom from pain. It's the larger story that my life has meaning and that kind of thing is powerful. What about on a societal level? Like what's a practical thing? Like should you know, should churches be mobilized to write, to write their MPs? Or what's your advice on that?

Gloria Woodland:
Yes, I would say we need to take action. That action is a witness to our faith. When we send a letter, when we talk to somebody, whether it's at, you know, the municipal level, the provincial level, the federal level, when we do something and we're clear and we do it politely and respectfully. Then we'll get listened to. And so I think we need to make this a continuous thing that is continuously coming before, that this is not what we would choose for our nation.

Rob Thiessen:
Evangelical Fellowship of Canada has access on the website. You can download a template letter and you know, for those churches that may want to do that, to have their members sign up as well. But I think I just want to encourage our listeners to, thinking for myself too, that whenever you venture into the public arena to mobilize, just recognize that there are wounded and hurting people. And also maybe my thoughts to preachers and I get this listening to Matthew here at North Langley often that how consciously I can tell he's thinking about where people are at, people who are far from God or people who are long term Christians, again, to whom it's not self-evident that we shouldn't. That MAID isn't a compassionate option. And so again, preaching in such a way that isn't just finger wagging and, you know, righteous statements about how wrong something is, but to help people understand that the thought process they may be going through and the consequences of it, to say, well, you know, if we choose this option, what are we seeing and how does that feel for people? And is that really bringing hope to people? We touched on another thing, and maybe this is the last thing we'll talk about today. But you mentioned doctors and the bind that they're in. What could a church do to help support people in the medical field for this? Because its a terrible dilemma that the people must be feeling.

Gloria Woodland:
Are there are many physicians who work in palliative care or end of life care who are saying, I have to walk away from this because the pressure is so great and it goes against their beliefs and their values that are guiding their life. And so they're walking away. So we do need to stand up and support those we know that are within our congregation as well as those in the community. The Christian Medical and Dental Association has a website that you can go to. No options, no choice. There are letters there that you can just simply sign and click. That will go to all the various levels of government to say, we need you to slow down on this. We need you to rethink this. And so that can be done in support of the physicians as well.

Rob Thiessen:
I was thinking about what Wally and Suzie, what you're involved with for people, I wonder. I haven't heard of any kind of a support group happening for just medical workers. But, you know, we all got out and clanged our pots and pans during COVID for the stress that they were dealing with. I wonder if there's our churches might initiate even just a, you know, a meeting to recognize what and to listen to the doctors and nurses, to share where they could share confidentially about what a what a struggle this is. Because I, you know, again like with so many other issues in our society, it's become unsafe to talk about, you know, if you're, yeah, you just feel like you're going to get crucified in the public arena or in social media or something, and that you're really going against the tide. So our, our medical people need support, too, I think.

Wally Nickel:
Yeah, I think I think it's really important for us to see who in our churches are those people, whether they're in the mental health professions, counselors, psychiatrists, whether they're in the rest of the medical field, doctors, nurses, whatever that might be, and to connect. And be able to help them connect what they're doing in the giftedness that they're using in their livelihoods with their faith. So often in the church, we've been scared to broach that and say, actually, we need you. The world out there needs you as a physician or as a pharmacist or a nurse or a counselor. But we need you in the church too to stand up and say, these are gifts that God has given me. And I need a place to connect with my faith community. And so that's why we're you know, one of the things that we're trying to do is, is find the resource people in our churches, whether they're occupational therapists or counselors or whatever it might be, and have them come and be a part of the Living Well community, I know we're using them as as guest speakers and we're using it, but I think it also gives them a place to realize, Oh, my faith does connect with what I do quote out there.

Rob Thiessen:
Right, Right.

Suzie Warneke:
Well, we've often had them say when they come and share. Oh, we love sharing at Living well, because it gives me an opportunity to not only share my expertise in my profession of my profession, but it also allows me to connect that to my faith. Whereas in my workplace I may not be able to do that, but here at Living Well, you give me space to really work out how do those work together?

Wally Nickel:
And we always invite them after the large session to be able to stick around for a small session and to come not just as a research person or a guest speaker, but to put on the hat of living with or caring for and be a participant, because that's one of the beautiful things at Living Well. All of us as facilitators wear both hats. We're a facilitator, but we're also living with or caring for somebody as well. And so depending on the session that you're there, sometimes we come and we're just like, you know, I can't facilitate very much today. I really just need to wear the participant hat today. And so we want to invite those guest speakers, those, those professionals that are coming and helping to also have a place to do that. I know it's a small part and the next step may be, like you said, Rob, to to have groups that are specific for professionals in the medical field.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Thiessen:
I thought one other thing I want to ask Gloria about, so Gloria, pastoral care going to the hospital, sitting with people in the psych ward or whatever. I mean, I did that not a whole lot. It's a growing church, big church. I was busy with things, but I wonder, I'm not sure how widely that's still practiced by pastors, especially in larger churches. You know, where they're visiting in the hospital. Is this is there a place where we should think, oh, this is actually a critical moment now because of what could be happening to them in the hospital?

Gloria Woodland:
Yeah.

Gloria Woodland:
I think for pastors now, hospital visitation isn't what it once was. Yeah. For one, like you say, everybody's busy growing their church and there's so much administration that goes with being a church leader now. And so visitation is one of the first things to slip off the calendar. But I also think there was a day when a pastor could come in and talk to anybody. That day is gone. You can only visit those in your own congregation now. And so the importance of chaplains, Christian chaplains is very much needing to be held up. That's an important piece because pastors can't get to everyone. They can only get to their own. And even if it is one of your own, they may not want to talk about it with their pastor. And so again, the place of chaplaincy. Which in some health regions in Alberta, I mean in British Columbia, we've already lost out on the chaplaincy component, other health regions, it is still strong. So depending on the communities where we live, we need to make sure that that's in place. Yeah, yeah.

Suzie Warneke:
Yeah. And I'd say for my son when he was on the psych ward, having pastors or lay people from the church visit him. Helped give him hope, the psych ward can feel very dark, very scary. And just having those quick little visits, they wouldn't come long, maybe 10, 15 minutes. But just to remind him that somebody saw him, somebody cared about him, was the hope that he needed. Because I know there were many times he's told me, there were many times mom on that psych ward where I said, if this is all it's going to be, take my life, I'm done. I can't do this. So I think as a church, it's so important, pastor, layperson, if you know someone that's struggling, they need community. They need to feel like they belong. And with MAID here, we need to be that voice so that they see that they do have a purpose. Someone cares.

Gloria Woodland:
We need to step up because they may not ask. Yeah. So we need to show up.

Speaker6:
Yeah. Yeah. That's really.

Wally Nickel:
I know for me, when I was in the psych ward at Peace Arch Hospital, one of the feelings I had was that the church had said, We don't know what to do for you, so go over there and get help. And when you're better, come back to us. And I remember one night it was one of the most lonely nights of my life and thinking my whole faith community is out there and I'm stuck in here. I don't want to, I don't want to live like this. And that was one of the moments that God gave me that vision and that no one should ever be a part of a faith community and experience that. And so we as a church need to figure out ways, need to be intentional about getting our presence into places like the hospitals and the psych units.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah, yeah. And the palliative care. And there still are amazing Christian people and Christian doctors in those places.

Gloria Woodland:
There are! The unfortunate thing, you know, here in our Fraser Fraser Health Authority, they are saying MAID will be done in hospice. It goes against the hospice philosophy, but they are the health authority.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah, yeah.

Rob Thiessen:
Well for our listeners, yeah, this is a pretty sobering discussion, but let's remind each other that we are a people of hope. We have a living hope in Christ and Jesus has overcome death. And yeah, we can take that presence. Let's bring hope to our communities and do what we can as a witness in the wider world as well. Look, we live in a democratic society, so we should take every opportunity to vote and communicate with our with our representatives, but also, I think caring for our communities that God has given us, is a sign of hope in our in our wider community. And it can potentially grow to reach other people. Word gets out in a community like Walnut Grove that North Langley is a place where there are groups meeting where support can be given. Even somebody lying in a hospital bed in a room receiving, seeing a pastor come and sit beside someone else and communicate hope. While we may not be free to talk to everybody on that ward, everybody will notice what has happened and wonder about what kind of a community are you? What do you believe? Why do you have hope? And supporting people in that place, it could be a tremendous hope.

Rob Thiessen:
And then, of course, you know, for all of us, our listeners, those involved who are pastors, to really prayerfully ask the Lord where and how do I bring this message into the preaching and teaching ministry of the church, because people need to be grounded in a meaningful story and be alerted to that. So yeah, for our BCMB community and those beyond, you know, there's many pastors and leaders who are listening to the podcast, maybe not from BCMB. This is an urgent call out to all of us, to seek the Lord about this matter, to be attentive to what's going on in our community. And like I wrote in a newsletter a little while ago, to stand on guard for Canada as we sing in our national anthem. So thanks for joining us, everyone, and for our listeners. Yeah, have a great week. And for this episode, we just wish you God's peace and we'll be with you again here shortly on the podcast coming up soon. Thanks.

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