BCMB 045 - God's Grace When We Near The End.mp3: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

BCMB 045 - God's Grace When We Near The End.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Rob Penner:
There are entire communities that are built around trash recycling places and some of our churches, because that's one thing that a lot of the migrants could do. They would just work from dawn to dusk. So trash recycling was a big thing for them, and churches were started within the recycling places. The presence of God is just kind of, it felt like he was hugging me almost. It was just so, so real and genuine and good and delightful. And I don't know really. Maybe I've had quiet times where I've kind of gone up to that place. I wouldn't say the, you know, the seventh heaven or anything, but it just seems much more abiding.

Intro:
Welcome to the BCMB podcast, Pastor to Pastor. This is a podcast by the British Columbia Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches. We want to help equip and encourage pastors, churches and anyone else who wants to listen in and be more effective in their ministry. This is episode 45, God's Grace When We Near The End with Rob Penner.

Rob Thiessen:
Good morning, everyone. It is morning here, but I'm over at Rob and Joy Penner's place in Richmond and this is the Pastor to Pastor podcast for BCMB. My name is Rob Thiessen. I'm the conference minister for the BCMB Churches and this is kind of a unique recording here. So I'm sitting with my friend Rob Penner at his place and I'm the technician today. So if the recording sounds crummy, that's because I'm running the GarageBand, which is a little bit scary, but we'll see how it goes. And yeah, looking forward to a conversation. Kind of a different conversation than I've had with well, with any of these recordings before. Rob's been on the recording before, But you know, in this past year, the sort of trajectory of life, all of a sudden, got seriously, well an update that surprised Rob and that was a cancer diagnosis. So I don't know. We always start off the podcast, Rob, with, you know, a little backup telling us the story of and I always ask the question about the community that helped shape your faith. I think you have shared a little bit before, but I think it would be great just to begin, maybe start a little bit with with kind of this, Yeah, your cancer diagnosis, what you were doing and when that hit and then maybe we'll back up and explore a little bit about your ministry story, even prior to, to your days serving here in pastoral work at Willingdon Church, which is has been your latest assignment over the last few years. So yeah, Tell us about what happened with your health and the diagnosis that that you got.

Rob Penner:
Sure. So it was the end of July and Joy and I had been on a two week road trip in the US, drove down to Southern California, then up through Utah and Montana, visited a few friends along the way, met our kids down in LA, went to Disneyland with the grandkids and had a really nice time, got to Bryce Canyon and there were some changes happening in, you know, just I could tell in my body my appetite was becoming less or I only wanted certain things. And so things were changing a little bit. But it was just like a few days before we arrived back home. We came home on July 26th. Two days later, I went back to the church at Willingdon, had a day and I just got so tired that day. I met with a couple of our coworkers in the morning and then I just at noon I thought, I just want to go home. And then I had a two hour nap in that afternoon. And we watched the grandkids that night because it was our son's ten year anniversary. And so they went out for dinner and we watched the grandkids and went to bed early that night, about 9:00 I was in bed. And not long after that, I heard I felt Joy tapping me. And I was in the midst of having a seizure. And it was so intense, I actually separated and fractured my shoulder. And then I was reaching over because that was painful with my other arm. Joy thought I was having a heart attack because it was on my left side. So she thought I was feeling for my heart. She called 911. They came out, they took me to the hospital and was in emergency.

Rob Penner:
And before, just within probably a day, they had done an MRI on my brain, found a tumor in my brain, and then they, the doctor, very, very good doctor at emergency, noticed bruising around my abdomen. And so they also did a, I guess, a probably a CT scan on my abdomen and found tumors and lesions in my abdomen. And so they declared immediately that there was cancer throughout my body. It was in my in my abdomen. It had spread to my brain. And it all sounded very dire immediately. They've since, you know, recanted or taken that back. And the one in my head is a benign tumor, But it did cause the seizure that brought me to the hospital, which the brain surgeon who I saw. Yeah, I have a brain surgeon now. He thought that was just incredible, that that would be the thing that would. Because they're totally unrelated. That would be the thing that would alert them to the cancer in my abdomen. And so, yeah, I was in the hospital for about 12 days at that time and eventually through many, many tests and putting a stent into my bile duct, they found out they diagnosed it as a bile duct cancer. And when I got to see my oncologist, he said that it had I would have 3 to 6 months to live. And that was already about a month and a half after it was first discovered. So my time seemed to be quite imminent. And I really did feel like at that time it was imminent. I was losing a lot of weight and I was yellow. And I as a pastor, I get to visit lots of people in the hospital with cancer and I looked like them.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah, you thought if I was visiting me, I wouldn't be holding out much hope?

Rob Penner:
Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, Joy and I made all of our all of my funeral arrangements. We bought bought grave plots. And, you know, I couldn't imagine that I would make it out of 2022 alive at that time.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. You contacted me and asked me to speak at your funeral.

Rob Penner:
That's right. Well, still a standing order.

Rob Thiessen:
Oh it's a standing order, standing invite. Yeah, but my prices are going up, so. Yeah, that was. That was a pretty heavy, heavy bit there. And you were serving at Willingdon Church as a pastor. And, and I know the church really, you know, stepped up and expressed a lot of love and support for you.

Rob Penner:
Yeah. Yeah. It was quite, quite amazing at Willingdon. It's a big church, so it's easy to become kind of lost in the mix, I suppose. Although I only had been there two years but have felt like I've formed some pretty good and lasting friendships with several people. And the church itself was, you know, institutionally, I guess you would say just, just really, really good to Joy and I and gave us lots of freedom. And yeah, so we felt very supported by the church. In fact, in mid October, about two and a half months in, I just felt suddenly it was almost like overnight my strength returned. The doctor had earlier said that chemo helps about a third of the people well, and I feel like I'm at the top of that one third because my body is reacting, responded so well to the treatment and energy just started returning so much. So I was planning to, you know, to start volunteering again in some of the ways that I was volunteering before. But then other things happened and that didn't become possible.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah, Yeah. So, well, let's chat a little bit about, you know, a couple of weeks ago, you, you sent me a blog connection for you. I you sent me you called it your death blog and always inspiring. And for listeners you got to know Rob was always had a certain sort of cynical approach to life that I've always found refreshing and maybe I have a streak of it too. So we love to chat and talk about our perspectives with a with a tone of sarcasm about it. But, you know, obviously this is very real and you've got, you know, your children and grandchildren and you've processed all of that or are processing with them. And you know, we could talk about all those things. But I just, you know, talking about what you what some of the things that the Lord has been teaching you and Rob, you know, you have over the years invested time writing and thinking. You know, I remember years ago you wrote that commentary on Galatians and and I was always impressed when you were a pastor in Hong Kong that you produced sort of written journals for the church to work through and discipleship. And, you know, I was always envious saying like, how does he, you know, have the energy and clarity and focus and discipline to get all that done. But it's a huge blessing. So as you've been journaling and writing on this time in your journey and what the Lord is teaching you, so what are some of the things that have been standing out to you that you know that might be helpful for people, for pastors who are listening and just, you know, they're there in the busy of life. And, you know, what do you what do you want to share with them?

Rob Penner:
Okay. Yeah. Well, I guess the, boy where to start with that? There's quite a few things to say. But one of the things is I feel like it's a calling on God, from God, to be in this place at this time and to process it in relationship with Him. So that's been really good. So a lot of things I think about, you know, being in the church so long, we've as pastors, we experience a lot of people responding to the prospect of death in different ways. And so and sometimes the kind of different emphases on faith confuse things for people. Sometimes they clarify things for people. But, you know, I've been in situations where people till the end believed that they wouldn't die. And if they just have enough faith and then they were encouraged by their faith community to have that. And so they didn't really get a chance to process their, you know, their illness with family very well. And so often and I know people who have been in that place see people who even have left the church. There's been some bitterness about the way that was processed. So I feel like I've been trying to, Joy and I both have been trying to be as realistic as possible, but with a realism that's anchored in faith. And early on, I felt like the spirit put a prayer in my heart from Psalm 102 about extending my life.

Rob Penner:
And so I've been praying that regularly I do want God to extend my life. But I also listen to the doctors and, you know, hear what they have to say. And I've outlived the first prediction. I think for me, one of the the greatest things that well, I want to say first that within this it's been a little bit hard to have conversations with people because people want me to live like people from church. They want me to live. And so the conversations are tend to be about, well, God is going to let you live. You know, that's just going to happen. And so I don't really have a response to that. And I don't want to say something that I don't want to argue. Sure. Sure. You know, and I want that, too. But, you know, it's it's nice to be able to talk because Joy and I talk very openly and freely about, you know, it'd be great if we could have some more years and, you know, travel to some places in Canada or but yet we know, you know, that it might not happen. And just to have a real conversation with somebody about about death. And the unique thing for me is that I feel really good. I don't feel bad. And a lot of people dealing with cancer feel bad. So all they can think about is, is their pain. And and I haven't had to do that so much.

Rob Penner:
There have been moments, but I feel pretty good. But I would say that in my weakest moments, what has become most clear in my mind over these months is the hope of resurrection, moving from a conceptual framework which I have preached about and taught about for years and thought about kind of in a comforting way. But the possibility of imminent death has pushed it to the forefront of my mind where it's become such a beautiful reality and it doesn't feel like a false hope at all. You always wonder, what are you going to think when you get to that point? And it has become more and more clear, more and more real, and even just I don't know, besides biblical, the biblical approach is just looking at the beauty of life, what our creator has given us, this gift that we have in life, which is also amped up. I've appreciated natural creation more deeply than I ever have. But then thinking about this God who created life is an eternal life giving God. And the biblical idea is that He has promised us life beyond these boundaries of time and place, makes complete sense to me. It's an irrational thought. Why not? If we have faith in this kind of God. And so I'm just so delighted in the hope of resurrection, even as it's become such a more real thing to me.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. I know. Last I think it was last summer there was a podcast with Tim Keller and they were processing his journey with cancer. He also has like a, you know, a terminal diagnosis. And he said the same thing about how day to day living, how he enjoys life, you know, colors everything. It just he's so much more aware and appreciative. Yeah. And I like you were you made the comment there that you know your processing it with the Lord. And this morning my reading was from Acts 17 where, you know Paul was talking to the philosophers and and he he says, you know in the past God put up with with ignorance. Of your idolatry, which I thought was kind of a pretty gracious thing for it's not the way he talks in Romans about idolatry, but, you know, he's not trying to offend them, but he's just saying, you know, this is ignorance because and now he is appointed this man through through the resurrection to be the judge of all things. And I just was thinking again, yeah, Paul was addressing people who had religious systems, who were philosophers and debaters, and he just put right in the center the living person that God has appointed. And, you know, I was just thinking, we don't follow like a system. And even though the teachings of Jesus are obviously very central, it's a central part of our discipleship is his teachings. It's not really the teachings that make it, it's the relation with Christ. And so you you mentioned that, that you're journeying this with Christ. How has how do you feel that God, you mentioned nature and stuff, but what are, how has God been speaking to you through this time and has this been. Yeah. What aspects of this journey now the last six months have you battled with or have been easier or harder with journeying with the Lord? What do you think he's teaching?

Rob Penner:
Yeah. Nothing has been really hard, I feel like. I suppose I would say, you know, I've been teaching. I guess that's the main thing I've done over the years in different contexts is pastoral, pastoral work and teaching. And, and so I kind of tend to live in my head a lot and think about a lot of things. And this has, I think, brought the ideas to life in a lot of ways. And I don't know, I haven't doubted anything. Everything just makes so much sense to me about who God is, what he expects. And, you know, the kind of the fact of judgment, it all just makes so much sense. You know, I've thought a lot about judgment, the mysteries around judgment, why God would make the judgments he makes and and how different they are from the judgments I would make. But I've just found myself so overjoyed that there's somebody who can see the big picture and can see all the ins and outs and can make the judgments that he makes. I suppose, Rob that would be the thing that I've reflected on most through

Rob Penner:
this is really who God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit and the wisdom that He possesses. As I think about the boundaries of my own life, the limitations of my life, the weakening of my body, just the eternal greatness of God. And that's honestly, you know, the resurrection. I mentioned the resurrection, the idea or not the idea, the fact, to me it's a fact now of resurrection life. But the I think the awareness of the growing awareness of who God is has been kind of just ramped up significant me when I was first diagnosed and I had my first 12 days in the hospital, then I was in quite a bit of physical discomfort. But the presence of God it just kind of felt like he was hugging me almost. It was just so, so real and genuine and good and and delightful. And I don't know really. Maybe I've had quiet times where I've kind of gone up to that place. I wouldn't say the, you know, the seventh heaven or anything, but it just seems much more abiding.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah, Yeah. That's so cool. It is. You know, I think always a big encouragement to us when and to me when, you know, you journey with people whose experience goes outside of your day to day because we live our faith, obviously, in our day to day experience, which, you know, includes our family and here in Canada, a lot of prosperity and blessings and busyness and all of that. And then someone else is in a totally different and they bear witness to like, oh, no, God's totally faithful. Like it works, basically, you know? And that's that's hugely encouraging, I think, for all of us, you know. A while ago you called and said, Hey, you know, I've invited some brothers to come over from China or you're working on it. And that just brings up, you know, where really the heart of your ministry, like you said, you've pastored at Willingdon for three years now. But back up a little bit to, you know, most of your life is spent in China. And for our listeners, you know, Rob pastored in Hong Kong for a number of years. But Rob and I know each other with Ray. Ray Harms Weibe over at Willingdon. We, we spend a year together at the Capernwray School in Texas. And from there, you know, Ray went on to finish his education ahead of us. I sort of took pauses in between and did an internship and swung a hammer for a year.

Rob Thiessen:
But I sort of went into pastoral ministry and I always thought when I was younger I could sell cars. I didn't really want to do that. Not nothing wrong with selling cars. And I had a family that was construction, so I did some of that, but I didn't really feel like that was me long term. And I had a love for a church growing up at Willingdon. So that's what I did. Ray went into missions in South America. He married Judy from a Bible College. And not to blame their time in South America on Judy, but she was from that background had been growing up on the mission field in South America. So Ray and Judy spent, what, 25 years in Brazil, 25 years planting churches, and you took a different track and ended up with YWAM in Asia and spent your life there. And for our listeners, Rob speaks Cantonese and Mandarin, and he kind of looks a little Chinese for those of you. So he's I think he confuses Chinese people a lot. Like, are you Chinese or what's the deal? But yeah, talk to us a little bit about how the Lord, about your heart for for work in China. And, you know, you've started a, you know, a mission there for the migrant workers focus. So tell us a little bit about that journey and your heart for especially for mainland China.

Rob Penner:
Sure. Okay. Well, I'll just say a couple of sentences, I guess maybe a few more than that. But when I first went to Hong Kong, I was 21. And why YWAM is such a great organization that giving young people a chance just to do whatever they wanted to do.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah, yeah. Which is scary at times.

Rob Penner:
A bit scary too, but got to try a lot of things and discover who I am and discern my calling really through that, that mission. And then I went to kind of did the proper thing. I went back to Regent and did some seminary work and I went into Pastorates and all that. But in 2007, I joined, I moved to Beijing and Joy's a teacher, so she got us the visa to be there. My official status was trailing spouse so I could do whatever I wanted to do and it was like a blank slate. So I spent a year learning Mandarin and then very specific and clear prayer in my heart. I had become aware of migrants and worked a little bit with migrants, people that had moved from villages into the cities to try to get a bit of the share of the prosperity that was coming into the country. And these are very, very poor, uneducated, lowly educated people from the villages at the time. So a prayer in my heart was for three guys who would wanted to church plant in migrant communities around Beijing, where I was living and prayed that every day it was a very clear prayer. I felt like the spirit just put it on my heart. And I prayed that every day for several months. And then one day somebody introduced me to a guy. I'll call him Tim.

Rob Penner:
Tim and I. Tim was 26 years old. He and I met in a Kentucky Fried Chicken in Beijing, had a cup of tea together, and he told me his story. He was one of the migrants who had come to Beijing as a teenager, late teens, and I was part of a Bible school set up by Korean missionaries, and they began knocking on doors and sharing the gospel with people. And they just started churches. He was a teenager. And so at the end of the conversation, he said, I'm one of three guys who are part of a team. And I said, Oh, that's interesting. That's didn't tell him this. Anyway, the next that I had been praying for this for three guys. So just, you know, didn't want to assume. Anyway, the next week I met the two other guys, Barnabas and Moody. So Tim and Barnabas and Moody were these three guys who had been church planting, and we just formed a very fast friendship, started lots of different kinds of training programs together. They knew other migrant pastors not connected to them directly, but who were working in different areas. And one thing just led to another. It snowballed. And and we just developed a lot of a lot of things together, especially training ministries. In 2015, well, let me back up. 2010, I was on the treadmill one day and I felt like the spirit just spoke very clearly to me every now and then.

Rob Penner:
This happens not that often, but I want you to give ten years of your life to walking with these guys. So that was 2010. So I was immediately I just had such a sense that this was a right thing. And to think in terms of these ten years, do that up to 2020 when I would turn 60 years old. So at the time I was 50. And so that became the kind of the guideline for my thinking in terms of time. 2015, we started something called Harvest Mission, where we brought all of the church planters together Tim and Moody, Barnabas and a few others from their team as well as others. We had met along the way and we formed something called a Harvest Mission, known outside of China as Migrants Hope and Harvest Mission really exists to make disciples through church planting. And so they at the time, the migrant phenomenon was just going like crazy, 300,000 migrants in Chinese major cities. And so and, you know, a forever pool of people to reach out with the gospel, 300 million sorry 300 million. And so we started that in 2015 and I was kept 2020 in my mind. And so we about 2018 began talking seriously about my leaving my turning over my responsibilities and the transition process.

Rob Penner:
And 2019 we prayed over three guys who would be the leadership team. Tim was one of them. And then another guy called Moses and another one named, English name is Daniel. And they became the they are to this day, the leadership team. So the over the years this group of and it's all been men interestingly because China's church is so often led by by women and but there was no women in our leadership group. All of our pastors were men. And it wasn't that we had a theology that excluded women. It just was who we were. But for me, it was kind of nice because it allowed me to to get kind of close in a way as a, you know, an older brother. A lot of them would think of me as a father because I'm that old. But we just became super close. Very, very close. And so when I was diagnosed last year with this, it was really hard for them, the thought of not seeing each other again, because at the time my death seemed imminent. And so earlier on this year, as my energy increased and I was asking, I do ask God for extensions on my life besides my family, who I want to spend more time with, the kids and grandkids to as much as I can. These guys in China that have invested, I've watched them live sacrificially for so much of their lives and just really hand-to-mouth for the sake of proclaiming the gospel in places where the church is persecuted, where they don't have enough to live on.

Rob Penner:
When I first went to Beijing, none of them had heat in their homes, and I'd say, Well, let me buy you a heater. And they'd say, well, no. Then we'd have to pay for the electricity. They just had so little money. And but and so I admired them and we became so close, kind of in a father son way, elder brother, younger brother way. And so this, this was my hope that I could continue walking with these guys for a little while. Anyway, this year they're planning to send out their first team to Chinese diaspora outside of China. So we're sending a team to Thailand this year to live in Thailand. That's all been processed. And I would just love more than anything to go to Bangkok and see them in this this this move. Okay. And so mission now is becoming a part of of what they're doing at Mission outside of missions. Always been our imperative within the country. Also working with people, groups within the country, but now looking at the diaspora, Chinese diaspora outside of the country as well. So this is kind of a transition year.

Rob Thiessen:
Well, when you you describe the training, so maybe it would be helpful just to hear what like I remember you invite I think it was 2015, you invited Janet and I over to to participate in a training there with pastors. And I remember we had a retreat planned and that was at an old folks home on one of the know, which was which was funny experience But yeah what sort of for for the listeners and pastors. So what is what is training of those leaders look like? Like what sort of things did you prioritize to teach them. And I know in the meantime, Rob, you also were studying you're working on your doctorate at different places, so you had a lot on the go. And so maybe talk to us a little bit about the things that you were prioritizing that were important for them for training and and also maybe give a little description about what those those church planters were up to. I remember when we were there, we visited and we visited some prayer meetings and such. But what what did ministry look like for these church planters? What were they?

Rob Penner:
Sure. Well, I'll start with that one. So migraine communities were kind of slum like areas on the outskirts of Beijing. Someone who worked in another kind of NGO that worked with migrants said that according to world standards, they actually are officially slums.

Rob Thiessen:
And when we were there, the Olympics were just coming. Was 2016 was the Olympics?

Rob Penner:
No, no, no. The Olympics had past 2008.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah, but they they seem to like the city looked to me like very nice and then very bad, like within like two blocks.

Rob Penner:
They spruced it up so well the year before the Olympics and then then it. Yeah, Yeah. So these migrant communities are very, very poor communities. A lot of them actually. There are entire communities that are built around trash recycling places and some of our churches, because that's one thing that a lot of the migrants could do. They would just work from dawn to dusk. So trash recycling was a big thing for them, and churches were started within the recycling places.

Rob Thiessen:
Which is crazy. In Cairo, I visited the The Trash City, which also has a huge ministry like God called a guy there and planted a huge church in Cairo among the trash recyclers. Yeah, that's a Christian thing. Maybe we were more recycling than we knew.

Rob Penner:
So yeah. So they would meet in, you know, they'd find whatever room they could that would maybe, depending on the nature of the community, that would be able to seat about up to 50 to 80 people. The communities would generally not be bigger than that. I think one of the churches was around 150 to 200. They needed more space and at that time China was more open. They didn't interfere too much with these kinds of meeting places.

Rob Thiessen:
Like you said, if I remember, you told me if they got bigger, they draw more attention. That's a problem.

Rob Penner:
Sure, it could be a problem. But the China I went to in 2007 all the way to 2015 felt free. I never felt watched. I never felt I never was asked any questions ever. I never have been to this day. But then over time, it became more things became more scrutinized. And then with COVID, of course, radically changed. So now they're just coming out of all of that. But as it pertains to the kind of training we did, I think for me personally, I wanted to develop training based on what I know as the teacher, but also and then bring in other people who have expertise in other areas. So you and Janet, Ray and Judy came over Carlin from former pastor at Willingdon. He came over and they loved him, too. Older guy. They really appreciate age in China, which is nice. Um, and so bringing in people with different kinds of expertise. But for me, it's kind of the main guy walking with them. The teaching has to come out of my heart. I know I can't recycle very well other people's material, but also I find that it had to pertain to their specific context. So in China you can find anything, you know, BSF is there, it's been translated and they do a great job. Pretty much any anything that has been taught. Systematically say in North America or another country. Alpha from England. All of that's been translated into Chinese and it's then taught.

Rob Penner:
You know, just kind of just taught, you know, just like it would be taught in London, England. And I was never personally comfortable with doing that. One, it's not me really to teach other people's stuff. But then I don't know if it really met their needs. So for example. Tim Keller is probably my favorite preacher to listen to and somebody in Hong Kong who's a huge Tim Keller fan had all of his sermons translated into Mandarin. And then somebody spoke them, I suppose, in Mandarin. And then he gave me he put them all on a USB. And so I had all these USBs to take in and give to our guys in China and they are kind of like, Nah, it's okay, what this is Tim Keller. But for them it didn't, you know, he speaks to people in New York that are educated and, you know, have a certain kind of concern, and it didn't really touch them as deeply. So we look at context and friendship, our relationship, what can we communicate? And so that is kind of a rare thing. You know, you can't reproduce that in a way. So, you know, they have all the materials from the many different groups that have been translating things, but I don't know if it really touches them as much as working through issues in the context of friendship with people that they can get to know. Yeah, so.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah, that's good. I, you know, we Janet and I certainly felt that too, that there there was an eagerness there to, you know, we did some teaching but even with the barriers of language they they they just want to pick your brain and talk a little bit about, well, what does that look like? Or what about this?

Rob Penner:
Sure. At the time, I think when you and Janet came, I think you had already about 30 years in pastoral ministry. And to them, that's way more valuable than anything. You know, just being able to share from the depths of that, I mean, kind of antibody, not to denigrate you as a teacher because you're a good teacher, but anybody can open up the Bible and say something about a text, right? And they've heard that millions of times and it's always beneficial, but it's much rarer to have somebody who's walked for decades in stable ministry and then to hear from them, hear from those people. One of the questions I had early on with the guys and the group has stayed pretty stable. There's been a few that have come and gone, but largely the guys have stayed together since I've known them 15 years already. But one of the questions I would ask is how many of you feel called to a lifetime of this kind of ministry and vocationally serving the church through preaching the gospel, making disciples. And when I first asked that question, every one of them except one put up his hand, a guy named Justin, and he was processing his life. He has since moved out and is still working with the church, but also serving in another area as well. But they did have that sense of this is my life and this is what I'm called to do for life. And that just makes it, it's not a hobby, you know, it's not like they're testing the waters. It's life for them. And so it just makes it more meaningful. Like we're moving together in one direction. And I don't know if I've experienced that anywhere else.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. Yeah, it's true here. Often in a church, it is typical, especially when you're working at a large church, for people to view it as an employment assignment. You know, I'm doing this for a while. I got hired by the church and yeah, more and more the sense of am I called to this is, is less of a thing that people feel or articulate. Sometimes I kind of don't know what to do with it, you know, because it's not something you can manufacture. You know, you put a lot of pressure on people. Are you called, you know, and they're like, Well, I don't know. And, you know, it feels like, well, it's God's business, but I know sometimes I think, well, are we doing something wrong, you know, or are we missing something with people? Because, you know, it's great for people to explore. But if they don't really enter in and accept the calling on their life that they're.

Rob Penner:
Yeah. It's true, Rob. I kind of I look at Paul's life. Some of the language he used about feeling compelled. It's like he couldn't do anything else with his life other than that. And as I talked to some people who are trying to consider, am I called into vocational ministry in some way? It's a choice among a thousand other choices where the agency is with us. And for the guys that I've been able to be with in China, there's not those choices. They don't feel like, I mean there are probably if they wanted there to be, but they don't they just feel constrained to do this thing, you know, and there's no other options for them in life. And so that's been nice. Yeah.

Rob Thiessen:
How do they like in the church in China, you know, because you know, it is watched and you said you weren't asked questions, but of course when we were over there, you know, you're very carefully, you know, trying to avoid being in the public eye. I remember we were driving in the van to the place, the sort of secret place where we were having a school and the window was down and you said, well, you should roll up the tinted window. Now we're getting close to the building and we don't want someone to see that a foreigner is coming. And I said, Well, that's okay. I have these dark sunglasses on and you pointed to my big nose and said, Yeah, but your nose is still sticking out and people will know right away that you're not Chinese. So you were taking steps. So, so this is like they don't have a big denominational structure. Like who do they connect with? And there's the, um, you know, the registered church. They're like, How does that go? Is it just the spirit of God that's knitting people together there?

Rob Penner:
Well, yeah, it is that, but it also takes a lot of work. And that's part of the thing that we've part of the rationale between behind Harvest Mission is to bring these guys into more of a formalized community where there's mutual accountability and like they want that. And so we had that even before we started harvest. But we, we set up this community and they're remarkably open with each other about a number of things, you know, personal things. But the importance of that kind of, it's not a denomination, but the relationships are so important to them. Right? And there's many many that are serving in China in an independent way. And maybe they get used to it over time. But for these for our guys, the community has really been important to them.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we take it for granted here. You know, sometimes even in my work with now with the denomination, right, it's, you know, people say, well, what value are you bringing as a denomination to our work? And I'm like, I'm not just don't quite know what to do with that question. And like, you know, the denomination is us. It's us together. And what do you just want to journey by yourself like? And, I think we, you know, we assume so much and don't recognize just how important it is. Yeah. And I think, you know, when, when the spirit of God is moving in a big way and people are coming to Christ, it's it's like a wave. You're riding a wave. Right? But Paul was very careful. And to go back and appoint elders to establish something, you know, I remember Wimber used to when he was asked about the Vineyard movement and he kind of didn't have, I think this is the way he talked about it. He really didn't have a vision for stability going into the future because he just said he felt called to be a part of like a wave, you know, that was happening. And I think the way he expressed it, I don't know if I'm quite accurate in that, but this is what I think happened before he passed away. He just said, you know, he didn't really have a plan for the future. He felt his assignment was to just serve and what he was called to, which was kind of a new thing. Yeah. And that was great. And I think the vineyard contributed a lot to the Body of Christ, but it has been kind of discouraging to watch it sort of not thrive going forward. And I thought there is something to be said for, you know, establishing something that could last. Right. But even doing it, you know, you use the word institutionalize. And that gets scary, too, you know.

Rob Penner:
Yeah, one of the things I found helpful at Keller in his book Center Church is kind of a how to book for how they've done church planting. He contrasts. Well, I don't know if contrast is the right word, but he lists aspects of the institution and then aspects of what he calls movement. And the church is meant to keep moving. We have to keep moving. So whatever we do, we have to foster movement. But the institution is so important as the skeleton to enable the movement to keep going. Otherwise it'll just be this wispy kind of thing that that fades. And as interesting as you look through his list of maybe there's ten items on each list under institution and movement, the church, by and large, defaults to institution. Yeah, because it's easier for us, it's more manageable and we can get a handle on it. And we have to fight for movement as we develop the institutional frameworks that move us forward. And that really helped me thinking about because it's the same anywhere in the world, and probably the Chinese church would want to be even more institutionalized than others because they want to do things right, You know.

Rob Thiessen:
They're very big on that. It's part of the culture.

Rob Penner:
Yeah, Yeah. And so to keep the sense of mission before us. You know, so sending our first team this year to Thailand, to me is not it's just it's important for the group, you know, that we're moving and so. Yeah.

Rob Thiessen:
Well, that's good. Maybe we'll stop the conversation there. I feel like I would like to talk to you again sometime. Maybe we'll record another one, Rob, on the topic of of mission, because as you know, we've chatted a little bit, but BCMB is at that place where we kind of looked at we where we were at. And over the past ten years, especially since I've been doing this work, you know, we've sort of been enforcing boundaries in some ways, you know, cleaning up the boundaries and making sure that we're dealing with issues. But in the meantime, especially after COVID, we felt like, you know, we've been stuck in neutral here for a long time. We're not moving anywhere. Right. And and there was an awareness, especially with the report, we can't stay here like this can't be so we're now taking steps to say, well, what what could we do to put mission and movement back at the forefront for all of our churches and for us corporately. So we should do another talk on that, because I know you've got a lot of thoughts about that, too. Yeah. So, yeah, thanks for this conversation, Rob and Joy in the background. And we just delighted to, to count you a friend and hear the things that the Lord is teaching you through this part of your life's journey. Thanks, Rob. Yeah. So for everybody that's joined us, thanks for spending this hour with us on the podcast and we'll look forward to to our next episode. Bye bye for now. Thanks.

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