#50 - A Tale of Two Churches ft. Janet Thiessen, Kevin Schultz, Terry Christie, and Jon Reesor

BCMB 050 - A Tale of Two Churches.mp3: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

BCMB 050 - A Tale of Two Churches.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Jon Reesor:
We took a look at John 12. Where Jesus says, "unless a seed falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed". And so just this theme and this reminder and this constant bringing back to the idea that God is a God who brings through death, that there is hope, that he can work with anyone in anything.

Kevin Schultz:
And so it took me actually a long time, my wife and I, a long time before we got on board with the idea of a merger. So yeah, it took some time because it was a different vision than what we planned. We thought to ourselves, like, we have a clear idea of what God's calling us to, but this doesn't seem like it.

Intro:
Welcome to the BCMB podcast, Pastor to Pastor. This is a podcast by the British Columbia Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches. We want to help equip and encourage pastors, churches, and anyone else who wants to listen in and be more effective in their ministry. This is episode 50, A Tale of Two Churches with Terry Christie, Jon Reesor, Kevin Schultz, and Janet Thiessen.

Rob Thiessen:
Hey everybody. Welcome. My name is Rob. I am the pastor to the pastors, I suppose, for the BC conference and delighted to be here on site at North Langley Community Church for our Pastor to Pastor podcast. Thanks for joining us. And I have a room full. This is the biggest sort of crowd that I've ever had. Four guests with me and we're here to tell a story. So this is going to be a little different podcast. Usually there's an interview back and forth, but we're going to try to unfold a story today. That's really an exciting chapter for North Langley and for a church in Aldergrove that we're going to introduce in a minute or two. So, how are we going to do this is well, kind of, in my mind is Charles Dickens A Tale of Two Churches. It was the best of times, the worst of times. And maybe we're going to start out with the story, the back story. And for that I want to introduce Terry Christie. So, Terry, tell us about your, just a little bit about your position, your role at the church. And then give us a quick overview of the backstory prior to this joining together of two congregations that's happened here recently.

Terry Christie:
Okay. Thank you. Rob. So, I have been a member of Bethel Church since 1988, so I think that makes it about 34 years up until 2022 when the merger happened. And Bethel Mennonite Church, I believe, started up in 1935. So it's it was it had been around for 87 years.

Rob Thiessen:
Got some history there.

Terry Christie:
Yeah, yeah. A long time. And a thriving church in the community when it started out and thriving for many, many decades, actually. So, I became the congregational chair in 2018 and had the opportunity to work through the merger with a whole team of people at North Langley and at Bethel. We had our board of elders working on this, of course, at Bethel.

Rob Thiessen:
So what got you as a church? To a place where you were, like, considering such a radical decision?

Terry Christie:
So, when I joined the church in 1988, I would guess that our congregation was about 250, 300 members. And it was it was a wonderful church. It was very welcoming and opening.

Rob Thiessen:
You had a thriving youth group back in those days.

Terry Christie:
Oh, we did, yeah. Oh, yeah. We had youth youth groups. We had, yeah, lots of lots of Christian, various Christian groups operating out of the church. And, over the years, I saw since 1988, we saw that our membership had slowly declined. And, this happened I think because while we tried to reach out into the community and have other people join us, we didn't have a lot of success with that. And over the years since 1988, our membership started to decline. And I think it was, a situation where a lot of our older seniors passed on to be with the Lord, and we didn't get people coming in to fill those places and join us. And so over all of those years, I would say that there had been a very slow decline and there had been great many discussions about, well, how do we deal with this? How do we resolve this? How do we reach out more to the community and get people coming in? So in 2022, we got to a situation where I would guess we had about 75 or 80 members is all we had left.

Rob Thiessen:
What about the attendance?

Terry Christie:
Yeah. The attendance was about the same, because you had some people who were not members who were attending or some members who didn't attend. So yeah, we had about, you know, 60, 70, 80 people attending in 2022 and 2021.

Rob Thiessen:
And this is a building that seats how many?

Terry Christie:
Oh, gosh, I think it's about 5 or 600. Right. We have a large sanctuary down below, and then we have seating up above in the nosebleed section.

Rob Thiessen:
Right. What about your, what was the financial picture at that point?

Terry Christie:
We had struggled financially over the years, and in the last, I would say 6 or 7 years, we had to reduce our budget. We just did not have the revenues coming in that we needed, and we had to make some difficult decisions about, okay, well, where do we cut? Where do we, what do we do here? And we had to make some reductions that were very difficult for us.

Rob Thiessen:
So at that point in the life of the church, then you made a decision to bring Pastor Jon in, who we're going to introduce in a minute. But tell us about that decision.

Terry Christie:
We did. In 2019, we went through a visioning process with an interim pastor. And we came up with some vision statements, which I can elaborate on if you wish. But shortly after that we hired Jon and it I think Jon joined us in 2019. Later in 2019. Jon? Yeah. And one of the best, one of the best hires we've ever made.

Rob Thiessen:
Okay. That's great. Let's jump. We'll we'll pick up Terry, some of your input and just, side of the story, but moving along. So, Jon, introduce yourself and just quickly tell us where you were, and you got this call. And what was it? How did you understand the call to this church?

Jon Reesor:
So Terry's words are very kind. In 2019, I was a Pastor looking for a Church. Bethel was a Church looking for a Pastor. And as Terry said, there were four key vision statements. There was, you know, I was coming in and didn't not really knowing the history, but there was clearly a heart of the people there to see God do something and to try and discern what was the path forward. Where was God leading? And the one that stuck the most out to me was to think and act like a church plant. And for me, I was so excited. That was the clincher that for this church that had been in the community for 80 plus years, that they wanted to reconsider, reimagine what God's future for them could be. So I started October 1st, 2019.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. I mean, this is pretty significant for a church of that age to still it obviously the church still had a firm grip on what needed to happen, or they were willing to at least envision a hopeful future. Right? So that was part of what drew you to the place?

Jon Reesor:
Yeah, absolutely. There was an expressed willingness to imagine what God would be wanting to do there.

Rob Thiessen:
Right. So how did that assignment unfold? Just talked to us a little bit about how, what you worked at and what you discovered along the way.

Jon Reesor:
Yeah. Well, I came in, and I'm not from a Mennonite background, and so I was up front. Wait, what? It's too late now, right? But came in and was, I really wanted to bring us as a church and to a reminder that we are the church because of Christ above all and beneath all. And so the very first sermon series I did was through Ephesians just to remind us that this is the church, that we are sinners, called by grace, redeemed by his mercy to do good works for which he's called us. And so that was just the foundation that we are the church because of Christ. So we started that, had our first Christmas. Ten weeks later, the world shut down with the pandemic. And so that was not fun for anyone. And that really, it had a profound impact on a lot of churches. But for us, particularly as we were trying to gain a little bit of momentum, trying to discern future how to do things differently, there was at once a realization that at the core of it all, the church is the people and the frustration and the challenges that Covid presented. So it was at once an opportunity and a challenge to see the heart of the church, but also just, yeah, everything that the pandemic brought with it.

Rob Thiessen:
Okay. That's amazin that was definitely a factor in this, a completely external factor to the situation that deeply affected the church's plans to move forward. But what I hear you saying, Jon, is that, you know, some of the fundamental things just don't change. Whatever the situation, the preaching of the word, like Paul writes to Timothy, you know, be faithful. Preach the word in season and out of season. And so that was a foundational piece for you. Now, you went into Covid, so but at what point did, like did this idea and where did it come from that to explore a merger like, yeah.

Jon Reesor:
Yeah, that was that was not the first idea. We tried a couple different things. We explored a couple different things. We actually, it was January 2022. My wife was on the North Langley website and saw that they had announced that they were going to be planting a campus in Aldergrove with Kevin Schultz as the planting pastor. And Kevin and I had gone for coffee years before. Neither of us can remember why, and we didn't go for coffee again since. Yeah. So we had connected. So I reached out to Kevin and I said, hey, we want to think and act like a church plant. And you want to be a church plant? Is there something we could do together? And so merger actually wasn't the first thing we discussed. We explored a wide range of options. And I'll leave it to Kevin to unpack that a little bit more. But merger wasn't the first. We actually explored a number of revitalization options. And so to jump ahead a little bit, we ended up coming to the congregation with three options, two different versions of a revitalization process and a potential merger with North Langley. And overwhelmingly, the congregation engaged with the merger, some immediately excited by that option, some less so. But there was virtually zero traction with the revitalization. And so it just seemed to be the one that resonated with the congregation. Yeah.

Rob Thiessen:
So you didn't like these other options, they weren't like terrible options that made the merger look good were they? You know, sometimes you can say, okay, we could do this horrible thing or this horrible thing or this good thing. Like, were they legitimate or just how did you how do you think God was moving in the lives of people to steer them towards such a radical decision?

Jon Reesor:
Yeah, that's a good question. I would say there's two parts of it. I think that to acknowledge that God was at work is key to all of this. I'm normally a fairly organized person, and I have my sermons planned a number of months out, but in probably October or November 2021. So the year before the very first conversation with Kevin, God put a stop to the sermons and just brought us into a season where we explored resurrection. So we read through John 11, the death and resurrection of Lazarus. Every week for a number of weeks, we took a look at John 12, where Jesus says, unless a seed falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. Um, and so just this theme and this reminder and this constant bringing back to the idea that God is a God who brings through death that there is hope that he can work with anyone in anything. And so that was, God was at work before we even began the conversation. So I think that's a really key part. But the revitalization options were legitimate options with established people who had walked through a process of revitalization with other churches and had seen fruit. And so they were legitimate options. But revitalization is a very difficult process. The analogy that I would sometimes use, it's like renovating your entire house while trying to live in it, whereas a merger is kind of a closer to a rebuild. It's a lot more work up front, but in a way it's simpler. And so I think they were legitimate options. We weren't trying to steer one way or the other, but it just seemed that the merger was for the congregation.

Rob Thiessen:
We have a son in law and daughter who who live in their houses while they're rebuilding them. And so that's a good analogy. It's a pretty challenging experience. Okay. That's super helpful, Jon. And I love it that you're describing that time of just focusing on the resurrection. It sounds like that became a time, really, of waiting on the Lord for the church, even though maybe you didn't know what you were waiting for. But that's often how it goes, right? And, uh, and you were being obedient, and the church was responding. That's amazing. So God was preparing the soil, so we switched over to Kevin. I'm going to slide the mic over here. Kevin, tell us about, we already know that you were part of a church planting thing here happening at North Langley. So tell us quickly, like, what was your journey up to that point, and then how did how did this, you know, this come in from the side or how did it hit you when you were focused on planting a church?

Kevin Schultz:
Yeah. Well, thanks, Rob. Yeah. So my role in this is I get to be the planting pastor for our Aldergrove campus. So I'm the campus pastor. And when North Langley started looking to plant our third campus, I was a youth pastor on staff at the time and was asked to consider that. Went through the process and decided with the elders and leadership at North Langley that we were going to plant in Aldergrove, which was kind of my hometown. So that's where I had a heart and really wanted to see another church. It had been a long time since a church had been planted in that area. And so, we just decided that's where we were going to go. I went on a sabbatical, kind of transitioning out of youth ministry into campus ministry. And when I came back, we announced to the world that we were going to be planting in Aldergrove. So we put together a video. That's what, Jon mentioned that his wife Emily saw. And that kind of kickstarted our conversation.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah, I remember it. Yeah. And so you started this conversation, but, like this is a different thing than what you were envisioning. So, like, did that come easy for you or how did you process shifting gears that way?

Kevin Schultz:
Yeah. So I got the call from Jon on a Thursday that they were at least considering different options for their church. And we started a conversation and when the idea of a merger came up, like Jon said, it wasn't necessarily the thing that we were looking at first or were pursuing right at the beginning. But as we started talking about it, it was like, well, maybe we use Bethel's facility and maybe we do our services on a Sunday night or in the gym while they're using the worship center, or vice versa. And so we explored all these options, and to be honest, most of the options that we looked at didn't sound super appealing to me. Bethel is, it's a little bit of a stretch to say that it's in the corner of Aldergrove, but it is. But I had a very clear vision for planting in downtown Aldergrove, most likely in a school, in a gym, like your typical church plant, where we're setting up every week and tearing down and trying to to just rally people in the community, hoping for walk up traffic. And Bethel was not that. Bethel, the facility was like I said, it's in a more suburban area, kind of North Otter Aldergrove area. And so it took me actually a long time, my wife and I, a long time before we got on board with the idea of a merger. So yeah, it took some time because it was a different vision than what we planned than what we planned. We thought to ourselves, like, we have a clear idea of what God's calling us to, but this doesn't seem like it. And so, yeah, it took a while.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. Well, that's honest. And, it's a fair thing that oftentimes in ministry we start out with an idea or a vision, and then we, you know, it changes. Parenting is like that, too, right? We start with an idea of vision, of what our lives will be like. And then we adapt to what unfolds. Okay. That's great. So we're going to circle back for, you know, we're going to have a bit more of a free ranging conversation. But here while we're telling the story. So you've come now and you're exploring the church plant, merger option as it unfolds. So, Janet, you ended up playing a significant role in this journey, too. So, what was your role? And, you know, how did this, when this landed on your table? Like, I know that because we talked about it at home a lot, but why don't you tell it for our listeners from your perspective. What was your initial reaction to this, and then how did you respond and what kind of a pathway opened up?

Janet Thiessen:
Yeah. Hi everyone. My name is Janet Thiessen. I'm married to Rob. I'm the executive pastor at Northland Community Church. And yeah, being invited into this merger conversation by Bethel elders and Bethel lead pastor Jon and Terry was shocking, surprising. I'll never forget those first meetings. And the thing though, that stood out above all was the humility of the leadership at Bethel and graciousness and godliness. They were a team that just floored us from the start. I think I'm going to get emotional about this, but their posture in this merger was, yeah, something we'll never forget. And so, you know, we were invited into this conversation and invited into this possibility. And, and they set the pace for how we would approach this merger. It was never a, you know, honestly some people could think, oh, it's just North Langley. It's a corporate takeover. It's an asset grab. Whatever. It was not like that at all. It was a mutual understanding and realization that we could do something together here that was better than what either congregation could do alone.

Janet Thiessen:
And so it wasn't subtraction, it was multiplication and always a sense of humility and prayer. Like, where was God leading us? But really being invited into that and then realizing that, you know, language was important and figuring this out was important, and I needed to take that role. Language was important. It was leading church, joining church language. It was merger, not takeover. It was understanding all these things. And I just want to give a shout out the resource. I went on a massive search to know, how do we do this? And landed on a book called Better Together Making Church Mergers Work by Jim Tomberlin and Warren Bird. So helpful. We just went by the book. We thought, people have done this before, this is possible. And we're just every week, every month, as our team and Bethel team met together, we're going to just lay this process before God, the timeline, the how to, and take it one step at a time in humility. But Bethel really led in that.

Rob Thiessen:
Okay, so before we maybe unpack a little bit of that, I just wanted to jump back somewhere Northview had a part in this story, too, and I think it's a little shout out to Northview, but I think it was significant. What was their part in this conversation?

Jon Reesor:
I know Northview had a experience in doing some of these things. And so Terry and I met for coffee with some of the leadership from Northview, just kind of laid out where we were at, and they kind of shared some of their experience. And so it was a helpful conversation. It was a helpful, yeah, we really appreciated that. I think we both recognized that it was not that the conversation was where we were going to to leave it. So we presented where we were at. They presented their experience and we appreciated the conversation and yeah, moved on from there. I don't know if you want to add anything to that.

Terry Christie:
No, I think that sums it up. Jon. Yeah.

Rob Thiessen:
And Janet, you had some connection with them as well.

Janet Thiessen:
Yeah, we understood from Northview, I think from Mark Burch that they also knew that North Langley wanted to plant an Aldergrove, and it was actually Northview that recommended, you know, that Bethel approach North Langley that was that was again humility. Right. And and saying, God what's best here?

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. Yeah. And it was an illustration of how this unfolded with everybody sort of waiting on. Well, what is the next step? Nobody forcing this. This wasn't North Langley's idea. It wasn't actually the idea that Bethel went into it with. But it just presented itself. It wasn't Kevin's idea. So I guess we can all. It wasn't Terry's idea either. So, you know, we can blame it on the Lord then. The spirit was guiding and working in various ways to bring this about. So you referred to the book, Janet and what could you describe from the process that and then we'll unpack. Maybe, you know, what some of the challenges and steps were from everybody contributing once the church stepped into this process. So what were some of the big rocks in this process?

Janet Thiessen:
Yeah, I would say that, you know, it it this resource really helped us. We understood that there were five stages to a merger. I never knew these things before, but it was actually, I love this kind of thing. Like digging in and leading this kind of change. So, it's kind of akin to, like, a dating relationship at first. You're just exploring, talking through. Is this possible? And then we entered a negotiation stage, which we looked at the question, all the questions of is this feasible? Then the declaration stage that was bringing it as a recommendation to both congregations and making a public announcement. And then, of course, consolidation. And that's kind of like, well, the wedding. Right? You know, you had the engagement, now it's the wedding and it's a name change. It's a two becoming one, you know, all that kind of stuff. And then we worked through, once that, you know, then you're working through the church vote and all these kind of things and then into the integration stage. And that takes a full year where the team still met regularly to troubleshoot and celebrate. And yeah, so we really followed the timeline. And, you know, it was laid out like a six month period. So we started in January. We finished in June. I didn't think it was possible. There were some nail biting moments and, you know, some moments of real discouragement like, oh my goodness, we put all this time and effort into this.

Rob Thiessen:
It's going to go off the rails or, you know, we're off.

Janet Thiessen:
The rails, you know, it needs this much percent of a vote or, you know, just and honestly so I guided the process. But it was really, you know, Terry, Jon, Kevin and some other leaders that put in the people time, the time that it took to meet with people and bring stuff to the congregation. I can just say, though, that communication was so key. I felt like we communicated our, you know, our hearts out, and just willingness to keep communicating.

Rob Thiessen:
Did you forge a team then or was there a steering committee for this?

Janet Thiessen:
It was myself and Kevin and two other elders from North Langley, as well as Terry and 2 or 3 other elders from Bethel and Jon. So that was the team that worked through this together.

Rob Thiessen:
Okay. Wow. So let's talk about, you know, this dating period and process. And maybe before we go into that, because we haven't really described kind of where the church is at now. And I think maybe people are wondering, well, what you know, our listeners. And so let's just jump ahead to today, what is some of the fruit and maybe Kevin, you want to talk to this. What's happening at Bethel. And then we'll go back and talk about maybe some of the hard things to get there.

Kevin Schultz:
Yeah for sure. We just had our first birthday on Thanksgiving. So we launched on Thanksgiving 2022. And right now that was about a month ago. And so we were a year and a month into this and it's been amazing. We're still very much in the honeymoon phase, and there's a lot of great things happening. We have found that the thing that I've been one of the things most excited about is our church has been a place where people are coming back to the Lord. To be honest, I thought that when we planted that there would be more new Christians a part of our community. But what we have found is that people that have been absent from church and faith community for a year or five years or since pre-COVID or 20 years or 30 or 40 years, are now coming back to the Lord and coming back to a faith community. And so we have grown a lot through just kind of people returning to the Lord. Right now we're a church that's probably like two, maybe even three times the size that I thought we were going to be when we when when I first thought we were going to be meeting in a school gym and kind of praying that the Lord would send enough people to make it viable. And so we we feel like a much older church than we really are.

Rob Thiessen:
Right. We talked a little bit before you. You thought you were going to give birth, but instead you adopted a teenager.

Kevin Schultz:
Yeah, that's a really good way of putting it. Rob. Yeah. And so yeah, we feel like a much more established church and we're not full but we're close to it and it's really exciting what God has done. Yeah. Just so thankful.

Rob Thiessen:
And this fall, you guys launched an alpha course as well there.

Kevin Schultz:
Yeah, we did our alpha in January last year, and then we'll be launching another one this January. All right.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. And Jon, you've got a staff role here to tell us a little bit about that, which is kind of unique and great.

Jon Reesor:
Yeah. So for the first year I was in a part time campus pastor role, I think is what it officially was. And then July 1st I came on full time, permanent. So my official title is I'm a Community Life pastor. I work with Tim McCarthy with our life groups. And then also part of my time is as a campus pastor in Aldergrove.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. So that provided some continuity, right? Both new and it helps a congregation, I think, when there's some pastoral stability.

Janet Thiessen:
Yeah. That was these things are all factors, right? When we're working through a merger, everything from staffing to what do you do about missionary support? And, you know, the facility needs upgrades. There's so many factors that 25 factors we identified that come to the table, everything from governance, the elder board. What about doctrine? Because these were two different denominations. Right? And so there's so working through all those. And staffing was a key one. And again just Jon's humility to actually, you know, put his resignation on the table. And but for North Langley to recognize he was a huge factor in the continuity of this merger.

Rob Thiessen:
Those 25 factors that come out of the book, or do you just come up with those?

Janet Thiessen:
They mostly came out of the book. Like I said, we went by the book, but there were others as well put together a massive, you know, memorandum of understanding that these things are so key. So there's not misinterpretations, missed expectations, you know, get it all out, explore everything that you think might be a factor in bringing two congregations together.

Rob Thiessen:
Right, right. So there's quite a bit of complexity, a lot of pitfalls along this way because there are two organizations, with two communities with history. So, Terry, back to you. There's this list of 25 things and pitfalls along the way. What would you identify as some of the biggest challenges in that merger process in that those six months of discussions, what were some of the things that stand out to you as being like, oh, this was challenging and how did it work out?

Terry Christie:
Okay. Thank you. Rob. Before I answer that, I just want to make mention of the people we were able to work with. And I'm thinking of our board of elders and the people at North Langley that we worked with throughout this whole process. And I can't say enough about both of those groups. Both of those teams, our board of elders was very open minded. They were dedicated, we prayed a lot right throughout this whole process. And Jon's leadership was incredible as well. So Jon, of course, was on the board of elders. So I can't say enough about our board of elders, just a great group. And the people at North Langley that we dealt with, like Janet and Kevin and others on the transition team, amazing people, very gracious, open minded, caring, loving, and being followers of God the way they were. That was very obvious. So I just want to say that before I answer the question.

Rob Thiessen:
That's very significant, Terry. I think, you know, we just assume that. But when there's, well, I don't think we can assume it at all. I said, usually churches that are in trouble, there's usually individuals on there who are not behaving in a Christlike way. And, so you're just saying we we had a group of leaders all committed to humility, to being gracious, to finding a pathway forward. And that's key for something as as tricky as this. Relationally challenging. Ror it to succeed. The Spirit of God was at work in the individuals. That's very helpful.

Terry Christie:
Now, in terms of some of the challenges we faced. We had, I can't remember how many questions we had over a period of, well from January through to April. April 24th is when we took the vote. I'll talk about that in a moment. But during that five month period, we had so many questions and that we wanted to answer.

Rob Thiessen:
And what format did you use to solicit those questions? Is this just everybody?

Terry Christie:
We had meetings, meetings, meetings like you wouldn't believe with our congregation. Many, many meetings and to answer those questions, we prepared questions and answers. And it started out as a ten page document. I think at the end, it ended up being about a 25 page document, which Jon worked a lot on. I'd like to acknowledge. And we answered all the questions as best as we could and honestly as we could, of course. And so what kind of questions did we have? Well, what's going to happen to the staff? Are they going to be looked after? What about the church? I mean, this is our church.

Rob Thiessen:
The building itself.

Terry Christie:
The building? Yeah. The property. You know, it belongs to our ancestors or those who went before us, and it belongs to us.

Rob Thiessen:
Janet mentioned the missionary commitment.

Terry Christie:
Yeah, the missionary commitment. And so one of the answers we had about the church, the property was, well, it's not my church, it's not your church, it's God's church. And so many questions. I can't even remember them all.

Rob Thiessen:
So you actually, like a big part of the change process was respecting the fact that people would have questions. Yeah, taking the time to write their questions down and answer them, which I don't know how it went in your case, but I know a lot of times you like, did anybody read that or? But you honored them by not dismissing, not ramming it down their throats, but actually saying, oh, we've heard you and we've actually thought of things that you're thinking of. Here's our answers. And that took like a lot of time, a lot of meetings, like you said, many meetings.

Terry Christie:
Yeah. And a lot of concerns came up. One of the other concerns was, well, you know, we're an MC church. Now we're going to, you're asking us to become an MB church. And that was another one of the items that came up.

Rob Thiessen:
So how did, tell us Terry did like, did this work because everybody got the answer that they were looking for or like, what's your sense of that process? Did all the questions get answered or were they left unanswered and we moved together? How do you think the church moved through that?

Terry Christie:
I would say we answered all the questions. And some of the answers were, some people within our congregation, they didn't like the answer. And, in the end, they may have opposed the merger. But I think it's important to say that, as a board of elders, we came to the conclusion that if we did nothing, we were going to lose people from our congregation. That was very clear, because we had been told that by several of our congregants, many of our congregants, that if something doesn't happen, I'm out of here.

Rob Thiessen:
At that time, you couldn't afford to lose people anymore. You'd lost so many.

Terry Christie:
On the other side. Some people said, well, if you don't do something. Well, okay, so if you don't do something, I'm going to leave. If you do something, I'm out of here, I'm going to leave. So either way, we thought, well, we're going to lose some people. And this was a reality of it. You're not going to get everybody on board. Yeah. In the end, our board of elders felt that we had to do something. Yeah, we had to take a step of faith, a leap of faith with God in it. And God was in this process, by the way, I want to mention God was in it right from the beginning and throughout the whole process. And we prayed a whole lot about it. So we decided as a board that we really, it was important that we did something. So on April 24th, we got to the point where we took a congregational vote.

Rob Thiessen:
Now, how did that go?

Terry Christie:
It went very well. I also want to say that, uh, before I answer that, before, throughout this process of all these many, many meetings, the people from North Langley were in attendance, too. Kevin. Janet. And some of the pastors from North Langley attended. They were there for many of the meetings, and they were there answering, helping us answer the questions that came forward. And that was amazing. And I know, for example, in one instance, Kevin, I think he spent 2 or 3 hours after the service talking to people, individuals in our congregation, working the parking lot. Yeah. And that was just I thought I thought that was just amazing. I really did I was just so amazed with that.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. So if nothing, you were working to demonstrate respect for the people and realizing this is hard and we're not just, you know, shutting you down here. We care about you. Right?

Terry Christie:
And that's, we did care about the people. And we were very concerned about people who wouldn't come along with us. And we cared for them and we prayed for them, too. So on April 24th, we had a congregational vote. We had four motions put forward. Very briefly, I'll tell you what they were. To affirm the vision statement that Jon talked about, about thinking and acting like a church plant. Secondly, that the Board of Elders of Bethel are authorized to start enacting those four vision statements by making all agreements and arrangements with North Langley as are necessary to merge our congregations. The third one was to transfer title of the property to North Langley, subject to several conditions, and I won't go through them all, but there were a host of about 6 or 7 conditions. And finally the fourth motion was to initiate withdrawal from MCBC. So for the last three of those motions, we had said to the congregation, these are special resolutions. We require 75% approval. And so on the 24th, we took the vote and we very carefully counted the ballots and the returns and motions two, three, and four received 88%, 82%, and 85% approval, respectively. An average of 85%. And, my thinking on that was, you know, that's amazing that is much more than 75%. And it shows very strong support for moving ahead with this merger. And so we were very pleased with that output.

Rob Thiessen:
That was two three and four. What was number one?

Terry Christie:
Number one was to affirm the vision statement.

Rob Thiessen:
And that didn't get approved?

Terry Christie:
Oh no, it got approved too. Yes. I think it got approved by 91%. Yeah. So that one got approved too. Yeah. But that one did not need the 75%. It only needed 50%.

Terry Christie:
Yeah. That's why I broke them out.

Rob Thiessen:
You know, leaving leaving the MCBC denomination obviously like you were saying was a was a bit of a pill for people to swallow. Right? They were like, well, what does this mean? How did that, yeah. How did that unfold with, you know, was it was the denomination there or did you just give them notice or how did that work?

Terry Christie:
That was not a major issue for us. We only heard concern about that from a few congregants, 2 or 3 congregants, perhaps. So it wasn't a big, big issue for us. And our answer to that one was, well, look at the confessions of faith of the two churches. They are so similar. I mean, show me where there's something not right here. And, so yeah. And by the way, we worked with MCBC throughout this process, too. We kept them in the loop. We told them what was happening from the get go. We told them at the beginning we were having discussions with North Langley about a merger, and they were, they didn't want to see us go. Of course. And that's understandable. But in the final analysis, I think they came to understand that it was a good thing for Bethel. And one of the big factors for Bethel was we had been at church in that community for 85 years. We wanted to remain as a church in that community and the Aldergrove community and be there for the community. Yeah, that was another important factor for us.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. That's great Terry. Thank you. So, Jon and Kevin talk to us a little bit about how, like Terry mentioned, Kevin, that you had spent some significant time working the crowd. Well, let's say smoothing the waters or doing. What were you doing in those long conversations? And why did you do that? And how what role did that play, do you think?

Kevin Schultz:
Yeah, I wanted to hear people's hearts and their ideas because I again, I wasn't convinced at the beginning that this was the right option. And so I was trying to make sure that that I understood people's concerns. I wasn't just trying to pay lip service. I actually spent a long time really debating whether or not this is what I wanted to do. And I felt like because I was the church planter, that maybe I did, maybe I didn't, but I felt like I had a veto vote in this. And I thought about that. And so I really wanted to hear why people were opposed to it. And for me, it came down to Bethel was trying to get somewhere as a church, to be a church in their community that was blessing their community, that was kingdom focused and was advancing the kingdom. And that's what we wanted for a church in Aldergrove. And I really think that we realized that we were both going to be ten years ahead of the game by doing it together than doing it on our own. And so when I was listening to what the Bethel congregants who were opposed to the merger were saying, it helped me to really clarify the why. And so it caused me to question and to really consider whether or not this was the Lord's leading or whether or not that this was us being ten years ahead of the game, or whether or not we were just steeplechasing or some of the things that maybe it could look like from the outside.

Rob Thiessen:
Right, right. That's so important. Kevin, I'm sure that affected your posture a lot, right? I mean when you come into a conversation and you're deeply invested in the success and outcome and you've sort of staked all your energy on it, you're not really in a great position to listen genuinely to people. Right? You're more like, I'm doing this because I have to. What's it going to take for you to get on board? But you came into it going, no, I really want to hear what you want to say. And by the way, I have my struggles too. That's a posture that lends itself to trust being built, right?

Kevin Schultz:
I hope so. And the flip side is like, selfishly, I really wanted it to work, right? Whatever we did, whether it was merging or planting, I was invested in really trying to see a church in Aldergrove succeed and be kingdom-focused. And so I was really trying to explore what was the best avenue to see that happen.

Rob Thiessen:
Jon, how about from your perspective? What sort of conversations were you having? What were some of the big challenges that you saw during this season, maybe both internally and how did you see the Lord at work?

Jon Reesor:
Well, just to reciprocate what Terry was saying, we had a team of elders that was, just phenomenal, instrumental, in first of all, just our desire. The prayer we prayed so much was God not our will, but yours be done. And so that whatever we wanted would be subject to what God had in mind for this whole thing. And so the the elders and leaders in our church had so many conversations listening one on one. And a lot of the questions in the question and answer document that we put out, even came out of individual conversations. So someone said, you know, I met with so and so they had this question. We would take that question and put it in the document that was published. And in that, trying to give voice to people who, even in quiet conversations, could have their opinion expressed. So that was, that was a big part of it. I think so much of this process was a willingness to be vulnerable. The questions I think were heartfelt from the Bethel congregants, like, is North Langley going to be a good and responsible steward of our history, of the church in the community, of the building of the people. And there's a vulnerability. Like Janet said, it's kind of like when when two people are trying to figure out, you know, a relationship moving ahead, it's hard to trust. It's hard to put your well-being in the hands of another. And there was just honest, heartfelt, sincere questions of you know, are they going to take good care of what we are entrusting to them? I think that was the heart of so much right of it.

Rob Thiessen:
Okay. So let's just talk a bit, in a couple of minutes here about the, because maybe that was tested because I know during the summer after. So this decision was, six months in, was agreed upon in the spring, late spring, June. Something like that. Wedding. Good time for a wedding.

Janet Thiessen:
Yeah. Also, the Northland congregation as well had to approve this and had to approve $1 million loan to renovate the building. So there were some things that had to happen here on North Langley's end too. And that happened in June.

Rob Thiessen:
Right. So let's just talk about $1 million loan to renovate. So, I know, Kevin you were involved at this stage. So now all of a sudden, you're into the weeds of of renovating a building. What was that process

Rob Thiessen:
Like? And, not the building so much. I mean, whenever, you spend $1 million updating a building that that needed some updating, I imagine, but it was well taken care of overall. But what were some of the dynamics that you found challenging through that? And maybe, you know, how did the people of Bethel process their building being shredded and, you know, redecorated or whatever it is that you tackled there?

Kevin Schultz:
Yeah. It was crazy. We were in a building project before we had a congregation. Like, we didn't even know who was coming to our church when we started this building project. And so that was kind of crazy. I don't know if too many churches that have done that. But the thing that I remember through that process is was really hard. I felt like a project manager more than a pastor for a number of months. But I remember the humility with which the people that were a part of Bethel took through that process. They basically handed over a facility to North Langley and entrusted us to do good by that, to renovate it well and to make sure that it was something that was going to be a ministry hub for our church and our community. And there was so much grace and so much humility that came from the Bethel congregation in entrusting us with that. And we did have someone from the Bethel congregation be on our building team that was speaking into that. And so it was an inclusion with that as well.

Janet Thiessen:
I was just going to say too, through the renovation period, like thelaunch team, what did you call it Kevin? The core team that was, you know, going to be the congregation when the church actually opened their doors again and the launch was made up of a total blend of both congregations. And that was due to Jon and Kevin actually inviting, you know, both congregations to be part of this new vision. And so that was a really amazing part of seeing, already before the church doors even opened as a campus in Aldergrove to see that combined effort.

Kevin Schultz:
Yeah. One of the things that that I think really led to the success of our campus plant was that we didn't actually have a congregation from North Langley when we merged with Bethel. There wasn't, Bethel wasn't joining a church that already existed in that community. And so we actually got to invite both North Langley and Bethel to be a part of Aldergrove from day one. So it was something new for Bethel, but it was also something new for North Langley, because we had no idea who was coming from either of our other two campuses to be a part of it. And so from our very first event, our very first like pre-launch event for our Aldergrove campus, there were both Bethel and North Langley people and others that were there as well. And from our very first outreach event to our very first worship in the park, to all these things, developing our teams. Our teams were formed with North Langley and Bethel congregants from day one.

Rob Thiessen:
Right. Which sounds nice. But I think reading between the lines is also, it must have represented some significant challenge that I imagine would still be ongoing because it's a new thing. But you're definitely, like in this merger, you're taking the DNA from the thriving church or the leading church and then joining it to some DNA of good people, but a church that wasn't healthy and thriving. So, it just doesn't sound totally easy. It sounds like you guys are painting it as a good thing, and it was a good thing, but it sounds like it might be challenging, you know, but have you found it particularly challenging, or is it still, like you said, honeymoon? And maybe I don't want to rain on the parade, but, you know, is it still is it going well? You know?

Kevin Schultz:
Elements that have been difficult for sure. Like it hasn't all been roses, but again, I think the humility and the grace that that Bethel has entrusted North Langley to lead in this process and then us being able to include, and we're trying not to think of it as Bethel and North Langley people, because we actually have a lot of people that that aren't from either background, but just being like, well, who's the best person to lead our prayer team? Well, that happens to be someone that was a part of the Bethel congregation. And so she's leading our prayer team who's helping with our worship. Well, that's a combination of both Bethel and North Langley people. And so, yeah, we really have tried to not just look at, hey, let's make sure we have a Bethel representative and a North Langley representative. We're saying, this is our church family, who's best to be leading in these areas? And, and sometimes it's been someone that's new to our congregation. Sometimes it's been North Langley and sometimes it's been Bethel.

Rob Thiessen:
So you avoid the winners and losers description. And it seems to me, like Terry, you said at the beginning that Bethel had identified these vision statements, and those are vision statements that North Langley would buy into too. They were renewal. They were in the right direction. So that gives you common ground to say, well, we're all focused on the same target. This isn't about my point of view, your point of view. It's about what God's called us together to.

Kevin Schultz:
Yeah we created new vision planting statements that were unique to North Langley and unique to Bethel. And so we created something new together. And that really allowed us all to kind of buy in at the same time. Yeah.

Rob Thiessen:
Also, the fact that you, that it worked out that you all were working together on renewing a building, I know the church isn't buildings, but doing stuff together where you roll your sleeves up and build something just like, you know, in the Old Testament, in the book of Nehemiah, whether it's building walls or building the temple, it really bonds a community together, right? People work side by side and go, we did something together. It gives you a good footing as a team.

Janet Thiessen:
I was going to say too you know, and this just comes from research. You know, some statistics. 30% of churches in a given year across North America close. 20% of churches are growing and multiplying, but 100% of church plants actually need a place to meet. And so, you know, just in research in general. 20% of those church plants are happening, spaces that they're finding are happening through mergers. Maybe we don't see it very much, but just if anyone's listening out there and thinking, can this be possible? There are church plants that need a home. You know, there are church buildings that are almost empty. Can we not see a way forward to help multiply, you know, God's kingdom through mergers?

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah.

Kevin Schultz:
Yeah. I really believe that this could be the next wave of church planting is through church mergers. If you were to say to me to go plant a church somewhere else, honestly, I feel like I'd have no idea what I was doing. But if you asked me to go help two churches merge, I'm like, oh man, I feel like we've learned how to do that pretty well.

Rob Thiessen:
Mhm. Yeah. And go ahead Jon.

Jon Reesor:
Well I think just as the other half to what Janet and Kevin just shared, having spoken to different churches, different pastors and different contexts, that at the heart of it, it's not a church looking for a building and a church that has a building looking for people to come in. I think at the core of it needs to be an understanding of the kingdom of God that buildings don't save and growing churches don't save. It is Jesus who saves, and it is about His kingdom. And so I think that God can use the means he uses, and that what we pursue is his will, not a building or a location or whatnot, and that through that he can do. As Janet said, when we understand that the kingdom is God's and it's not mine or yours or whatever else, I think so much comes out of that, that we hold things with an open hand. We hold ourselves, our future, so differently when we take that posture.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah, this is great. It's a good conversation and I hope it's encouraging to all of our BCMB churches and pastors to think about, to celebrate God's faithfulness. You know, we were talking about at the beginning, the church is, you know, just celebrated one year. You know, we're always it's a little soon to celebrate how fantastic everything is because, you know, as with always with the church, sometimes the wheels come off when we don't expect it. The church is more fragile than we'd like it to be. But this is a great moment of celebrating God's faithfulness and gives us hope and inspiration for maybe opportunities that other churches are looking maybe for our listeners, if you know, your church is plateaued and or in decline and you look around and go, well, is there a merger possible? It is possible. You know, again, some of the old wisdom was, oh, mergers are, you know, it's toxic. You got to have the other church die completely and then complete takeover. Well, sometimes that's true, but evidently not always. And and so if that's the only way to go about it, then sometimes it's a no deal. There's no deal to be made. You know, there's no common ground. But if there is, uh, you guys have learned some of the, the lessons and, and you're willing to share them. So yeah, for our listening audience, I hope this has been encouraging. Keep praying for, uh, for the Aldergrove campus, the Bethel campus of NLCC, for the work that's happening out there, what do you call it?

Janet Thiessen:
The Aldergrove Campus.

Rob Thiessen:
The Aldergrove Campus. Right. Yeah. And probably for the people from Bethel, they call it the Bethel Campus.

Terry Christie:
Actually, most of them are calling it the Aldergrove Campus.

Jon Reesor:
We call it the Bethel Worship Center. So the worship center has been renamed. Yeah, yeah.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah, yeah. Good. Good. Blending things together. All right, everyone, thanks for joining me. And thanks for our listeners to take another hour to spend with the BCMB Pastor to Pastor podcast. And yeah, we'll see you again in our next conversation. Bye bye.

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