#51 - Explore Immerse ft. Marc Lapointe, Julie, and Levi

BCMB 051 - Explore Immerse.mp3: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

BCMB 051 - Explore Immerse.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Julie:
As I was talking it through with the Lord, I just felt him impress upon me. Like, have you ever asked me for anything else? And I thought in that moment, like, no, I've just asked you to help me be faithful, help me persevere in the thing you put in front of me. And that just kind of opened this door for me to start dreaming of, like, oh, if I wasn't a nurse, what would I do? I kind of came to the conclusion if I was to do anything other than nursing, it would either be something creative or something to do with the watering of people's souls.

Levi:
And so Immerse fits within that pretty neatly. I felt that kind of growing, like Julie talks about kind of that desire to do this. And Immerse was an opportunity that I explored, have not really given it much of a second thought ever since.

Intro:
Welcome to the BCMB podcast, pastor to pastor. This is a podcast by the British Columbia Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches. We want to help equip and encourage pastors, churches, and anyone else who wants to listen in and be more effective in their ministry. This is episode 51, Explore Immerse with Mark Lapointe, Julie, and Levi.

Rob:
Well. Hey everyone, my name is Rob Thiessen. I am the Conference Pastor for the BCMB churches and host of this BCMB Pastor to Pastor podcast. So I'm here with some friends at Northview. We're in the studio downstairs where they record a lot of podcasts, and today I'm excited to be hosting Julie, Levi, and Mark, who are all involved in the Immerse program. They have different roles here, but before we get into that and what the Immerse program is, which is our topic for the podcast today, I just want to ask that question that I always start with, and that is, tell us a little bit about your journey and about the community that helped shape you. So, Levi, I'm going to start with you, and then we'll go over to Julie and to Mark.

Levi:
Yeah. That's great. Good to be here, Rob. Thanks for the invitation. Sure. Yeah, my name is Levi. Just one of the one of the easiest ways to talk about kind of who I am and how I've ended up, where I have ended up is to talk a little bit about my parents. They met in Northview's young adult ministry in the early 90s. And so my family has been a part of Northview ever since. I am, for better and for worse, the product of all of Northview's discipleship initiatives from childhood through where I'm at now. So I have many fond and warm memories of the church. And this has been a really foundational place for me, both in my own faith journey and in my call into pastoral ministry, which I'm sure we'll get more into throughout this episode together. But that's really kind of a foundational thing for me that Northview has always been my church. I have a deep love for the people here, and I'm extremely grateful for all of the ways in which I've been poured into by many people in the past and present.

Rob:
That's fantastic. Levi. Good testimony. Yeah. Julie?

Julie:
Yeah. Similar to Levi, I think I would have to start with my parents as well. And that they are two faithful people who really love the Lord. Have a real passion for God's word and Orthodox theology. So I was raised in a home and at a church, not Northview, but another church in the Fraser Valley of the Reformed Baptist tradition or denomination, where we were given a wealth of education from birth. Pretty much. I was there for most of my life into my 20s. And they were really formative years in where I came to know the Lord in saving faith. And I think had this was captured by the necessity of doctrine, to be biblical and for it to come from Scripture alone. But I also was greatly influenced by the friends that I made in middle school that I'm still friends with now to this day, that some of them go to Northview, because they came from a different church denomination. And to have that rub, growing up to see how they lived out their faith, how I was living out my faith, we really influenced each other and in many ways, they were the grace of the Lord in my life to keep me in the faith for those kind of really formative years. So then once I graduated and entered a secular environment where for the first time, some of my closest friends were not Christians University, I kept coming back to what I had as a foundation, what I knew to be true.

Julie:
So then when I finally made my way to Northview in my early 20s, it's been the place where, somewhere in there I got married to Craig, my husband, and he came from such a different church background than me. That Northview for us, has been just a really huge blessing as a place for us to work out. What does it mean to live out our faith now as as our own families, our own family unit. Coming from really different backgrounds, Northview has been a really soft and safe place to land and to figure that out. So we're really thankful for Northview. We we were first captured by the kind of church planting vision because when I started coming to Northview, that was when one of our campuses, East Abby, opened, and that was when I felt like I should make the switch and make that Northview now my home church, and when I'm in, I'm in. And I really love the global church but also the local church and that I think the the necessity being plugged into that. So the people here, now that I'm on staff, have continually and persistently formed me in really transformative ways that I probably won't fully grasp until eternity to see the mark that they've had on my life. But yeah, I'm so thankful for the people that the Lord has placed along my way, because in many ways, that has been his biggest grace in my life.

Rob:
Excellent. Thanks, Julie. Yeah, God's faithfulness through community and for both of you is great. Yeah. Mark, you didn't grow up here in this neighbourhood. Tell us about your journey.

Mark:
My journey to faith, to ministry, and to the Fraser Valley is a little bit more meandering. Born back east in Quebec, so French Canadian and grew up for the first several years of my life in the Catholic Church. Now talk about people who have influenced you. And this will be sort of a theme in my brief testimony. My father, I would say is has had a heavy influence. Probably I would say the godliest man that I know. But at the time and, you know, now this is looking back, of course, having conversations with my father over the years, even though my parents were part of the Catholic Church, there was just something, they just had questions. And we had eventually moved to the Toronto area just because of his work. And they made connections with people. It's a long story, but they made connections with people in a local Baptist church. So my parents started sending me to Sunday school there. So started going to a Baptist church and then eventually ended up in the PAOC, so Pentecostal church. So, yeah so as a kid growing up, I was always, you know, probably because of my parents always ask questions. They always invited questions. So when you kind of go from, you know, I was confirmed in the Catholic Church, so you when you go from that to ultimately, you know, Pentecostal background, you're always asking questions. And my father especially invited those questions. And if you had answers, he would share them. But always wanted me to to explore that. And, so, became a believer in my later teenage years. And eventually I went out to Trinity Western and Trinity Western, interesting environment because now you have, you know, for me, I mean, I went to a public high school, so you kind of that's a culture you're familiar with.

Mark:
And then you come to Trinity having these expectations, like, oh, all these Christians are gathered here. This is going to be really great. And you certainly do. You have people from different traditions, different denominations, but you have a lot of people who aren't believers or who are have, you know, they're now away from home and they're separating themselves from that faith they grew up in. So I was in an environment for somebody who's just likes to ask questions. It was fascinating for me. And I would say it strengthened my faith. Not that I didn't feel, you know, just because others were questioning the faith of their youth. It strengthened my faith. I eventually met my my wife there. So my mother's greatest nightmare was realized, and I stayed in BC. Yeah. And I basically I became a teacher. So I taught middle school and high school, and my wife and I started attending Northview. And over the years, being involved in different, sort of courses, particularly like the systematic theology course, it just really whet my appetite for doctrine and theology. And my wife actually was the one who encouraged me to dive into it more, but at the same time, I had individuals in my life saying, yeah, Mark, you're a teacher, like, this is this is something you enjoy. This is something you're continually improving in. Like don't stop doing that.

Mark:
So how can you marry the two? And I thought at the time, then I'll just become a Bible college professor or a seminary prof or whatever. But there was always people speaking into my life going, yeah, that's great. We have a lot of those, but how can you, you know, use your, your knowledge or the things that you're learning about and maybe raise up leaders. It was just like this question. Anyway, lots of story in between, but I ended up being hired at Northview for, and we're going to talk about that to be part of the the Immerse program or to supervise that. And what's been amazing is that all these things over the years as I was in seminary. You know, filling my head with knowledge, theology and all of that. And where did you go to seminary? So a midwestern Baptist theological seminary. So that's in Kansas City. So filling my head with knowledge and also being challenged, like, okay, how do you take that? How do you parlay that into training leaders? It was always a question in my mind. Here I am at Northview and they're going, this is how you can do it. now we can take that knowledge and be part of a program and be involved in the lives of mostly young adults. But people who are aspiring to be pastors. And anyway, so we'll talk more about that. But that's how I arrived to this point. And it's been it's been a lot of fun.

Rob:
Good. Well, that's great thanks for sharing that story, Mark. And yeah. It's an amazing journey of God's faithfulness and the things you bring both being, you know, coming out of a Catholic background and a few other denominational stops along the way. And here you are at Northview and then, of course, Northview is a part of a Mennonite Brethren community. But it's a big church. And like big churches do, it kind of has its own orbit, too, right? Which, for our, you know, our BCMB family. Northview has had that kind of an orbit for years. You know, when I started as a pastor. Northview used to host under Vern Heidebrecht big Northview church growth conferences. And we also come out here and it was great. They put on a great event and there was a lot of inspiration and stuff. And yeah, and the churches had a strong influence on people. And now that influence is growing. And so that's why I wanted to talk about the Immerse program. I was out here recently at the Equip conference in the fall and was just touching base. I knew of the Immerse program, you know, for quite a few years, but people were telling me about how many students were involved, and I think the number was around 14 or something.

Rob:
And I mean, that's not a huge number, but knowing how seminaries struggle to get any kind of, you know, traction with students pursuing pastoral ministries, I think it's a struggle for seminaries generally. You know, I just listened up and said, well, what's happening here? And it's growing. And so, you know, that's why we got this podcast together with two students, Julie and Levi, and you, Mark. So tell us a little bit about the history of the Immerse program here at the church. And yeah, how it evolved. And, you know, a little bit about the philosophy that's emerged for Immerse because I imagine it has evolved through kind of different iterations. And now you've got multiple staff. And I think a lot of us remember Kyle Meeker, who was here for a number of years and was pretty involved. But yeah, talk to us about that, Mark.

Mark:
Yeah. Well, let's start with that. With with Kyle. So, what now? Ten years ago maybe. So long before I got here. Kyle Meeker and our then lead pastor, Jeff Bucknum, they began to have conversations about this need for pastors in the Canadian churches and this growing concern that it wasn't just a need for pastors, there was no one who was trained and able to step in as lead pastors, associate pastors, and whatnot. And so, Northview in particular, and I'm sure there's many other churches, but Northview in particular was talking about planting churches, but planting a church and not being able to put somebody who can lead that church, like what's the point? So they began to explore ways in which they can be very purposeful. I mean, Northview has always had an intern program, CBC students coming over here. But they wanted to do something a little bit more formal and something that was very specific to training pastors. And so Immerse, they came across Immerse, which is actually a program that Northwest Baptist out at the Trinity campus put together and is part of acts. Part of acts. Yeah. But the difference with Immerse, and I think this is why it really caught Kyle and Jeff's attention at the time.

Mark:
It's not just a conventional seminary program. It's what we call a competency based program. Meaning there's certainly, there's classes, but students work with the different the pastors they work in ministries. Half of their time is doing ministry work. And they're not just doing assignments. You know, there's a paper that's due, you write it up, you get a grade, all of their assignments, whether it's writing or it's reflecting or maybe demonstrating something through the work they've done in a ministry, it's all there to demonstrate not just experience, but mastery of a certain skill. Right? So that could be theological knowledge. It could be character. Preaching obviously is a huge one. And Julie and Levi, they'll get into that in a lot more detail. But really, a competency based program is there, for us to be able to observe mastery and then say you are ready to graduate. And that program takes about 3 or 4 years. So they jumped on that. No other, seminary and still no other seminaries really doing that program. So fast forward to where we are now. And obviously Kyle and Jeff have moved on to another church.

Mark:
And what has happened, particularly since I got here two and a half years ago, there has been such an increased interest, an interest not only with with congregants who are, you know, whether they're young adults or people thinking about a change in career because they do feel a calling. There's interest from other churches who have identified people who either are on staff. Maybe they're lay leaders. And they've heard about this competency based program, particularly, MB churches. And they want to know how to partner up and so that's how, one of the ways in which we've been evolving and up until just this year, it's the program has been a master's of divinity, so you earn your MDiv, but we've now introduced a two year Master's of Arts program as well. And we can get into all the details about that. But it's really a graduate level pastoral program. And like I said, as our conversation goes on, I'm sure we'll sort of dive into, well, you know, what are partnerships with churches? Like what what are our relationships with other educational institutions look like and things like that? So there you go.

Rob:
Yeah. Let's make a note of that mark that we don't, that we pick that up again in the conversation because I think for our listeners, that would be really key. So the need for pastors. Yeah. Is, well you know, any kind of surveys or reports where whether it's Barna in the States or anything in Canada here we kind of know that. And, you know, people ask me, are we in a shortage of pastors in MB churches? And by God's grace right now, it's not like a I'm not saying like, oh, we're at a critical situation, but what I would say is that, churches who look for pastors take a lot longer to find them than maybe in the past. And there certainly isn't a backlog of people. So I think it's kind of obvious that there's a, you know, some people call it a pipeline, a leadership pipeline is weak and churches developing leaders actually, has for many years been, you know, a critical source of leaders. So, yeah, it's really on point. And for our listeners to think about how we can all, as pastors across the province, be involved in developing leaders and maybe take advantage of Immerse. We want to get back to that. I want to talk to the students, though, to maybe I'll start with Julie here to talk about, you know, what drew you to Immerse and, you know, just maybe touch on what you're hoping to get out of the program now that you've been into it. So what got you started? And tell us where you're at in the program now. And, yeah, a little bit about, you know, how it's impacting your life.

Julie:
Yeah, well, I have to go backwards a little bit. I right out of high school, I went into nursing, and I became a nurse. Quickly into the program, I was like, I don't know if this is for me, but you know what? Let's just finish this semester and plug on kind of thing. And you do that eight times each semester, and all of a sudden you're a nurse at the end. So that was where I found myself out of high school - nursing. My desire, my heart was to kind of use that in the mission field in some way, but I didn't know what that would look like. So I started working at the Abbotsford Hospital. And within a couple of years, I was increasingly thinking, I don't know if this is for me. I don't know if I found my spot. I eventually found my way into palliative nursing, which is caring for people with terminal illnesses and chemotherapy. And those were two ways where I actually got to minister to people within the medical sphere. Where you actually had a little bit more time to care for their souls, their stories, their families, but there was still this weight around it for me, I think, where it was just continually challenging to enter into those spheres and not be able to care for them, as I would like to.

Julie:
And so for me, there was a season where nursing was particularly hard. It was shortly after Craig and I had gotten married, and I was just kind of crying out to the Lord one night of like, how long am I going to have to persevere in this? I've continually asked you for perseverance and you've given it to me. But I'm tired. I'm weary. I don't know how much longer I can persevere in something that I'm finding really difficult to do. And that was the first time I kind of, as I was talking it through with the Lord, I just felt him impress upon me, like, have you ever asked me for anything else? And I thought in that moment, like, no, I've just asked you to help me be faithful, help me persevere. And the thing you've put in front of me. And that just kind of opened this window or this door for me to start dreaming of, like, oh, if I wasn't a nurse, what would I do? And so in conversations with my husband and with a few close people, I kind of came to the conclusion I would, if I was to do anything other than nursing, it would either be something creative, kind of working with my hands and maybe floral design or something to do with the watering of people's souls.

Julie:
And I decided I'll be a florist in heaven. But here on earth I would be involved in the watering of people's souls. So that was a helpful kind of marker for me to realize, I think like, I love people, I love their stories, and I love God's Word, and I want them to know what it says. But what shape that would take? I had no idea. So I started to bring a few people into it, ask them to pray into it with me. Had a few important conversations and Immerse kept coming up. There were a few people, that were just badgering me to apply. But the thought of four years of school, after just doing four years of school a few years earlier, was not particularly appealing. So I started just jumping into learning opportunities. So I did the theology class here at Northview. I was in Bible study in precept, and, some leadership opportunities were presented before me, kind of within precept particularly. That was kind of one of the first times I had ever started leading young women, into a greater knowledge of the Lord and just weekly rhythms and learning from other people. And so it was a combination of learning opportunities, leadership opportunities and people that wouldn't let it go, basically.

Julie:
Eventually I applied, I gave in, I had audited classes for a year just to whet my appetite a little bit. And I think the auditing was actually really important for me to realize that, school had never been something I'd really enjoyed. It was kind of a means to an end. It came fairly easily to me, but it was just, let's just get this done so we can move on to the next thing. And Immerse classes were the first time I realized, wow, there is so much I don't know. And growing up as a Christian kid and a Christian home where you're taught lots, that was a new concept for me. As somewhat arrogant as that sounds, it was like, no, I think I know stuff by now, and starting to realize what you don't know is a really humbling and necessary experience, and that learning was actually really enjoyable. I was just like eating it up every class. I would just go away with my brain so full, trying to digest the things that I was being, that the input, but also just the conversations we were having. So that year of auditing was just a real confirmation to me that I like learning and I like learning, especially when it comes to the things of the Lord and the application of that in day to day life.

Rob:
So how has, that was a couple of years back. Got you started into it. You know, dipped into it a little bit. Has there been any sort of clarifying or of your own sense of calling through these years of Immerse?

Julie:
Calling is an intimidating word for me, I think. So I, one of our old pastors, Greg Harris, described calling to me as being a combination of desire, opportunity, and ability. So I think Immerse has been the working out of those three things. In many ways, it is increased a desire to know the Lord more, to know people more and to lead them to the feet of the Lord in various ways. Opportunity has been just the plethora, like I have had so many opportunities to try things I never otherwise would. And Northview has been such a safe and soft landing, I guess again in that way, in that there's so many mentors around you, there are people that will coach you along the way, both in challenging you and exhorting you and encouraging you, and in the way that the Lord has made you. And then I think the actual skills to increase the ability so that by the end, hopefully I have a more robust ability to do the things that the Lord is calling me to. And I think the desire continues to grow in certain areas. So I think it's a, discernment piece, I guess, or hearing people speak into your life of the ways the Lord has gifted you and the ways that he hasn't gifted you is just as important, I think.

Julie:
So I don't necessarily know where the Lord is leading, and sometimes that's scary, but I think it's a matter of, saying yes to the opportunities that are before me and starting to realize, oh, I think this is actually what is really life giving, or this is how I can participate in the life of the church. So one of the main emphasis within Immerse is learning how to teach. And when I first went in, that was super intimidating. And it still is in many ways. That was never something I never saw myself as a teacher. I didn't want to pursue teaching, so I knew that would be a stretching point for me. And it has and continues to be. But I think realizing teaching can take so many forms. And so there is the formal teaching within, like women's Bible study that I get to do where our young adults. And as much as those are really hard, I have increasingly enjoyed them. But I think there's also so much informal teaching, and I want to learn how to communicate what God has revealed about himself clearly, efficiently, but also winsomely in a way that wins people to him, into the truth. So I think that's been one of my main stretching and growing opportunities.

Rob:
Yeah that's great. And you're allowed to, you know, Julie, to be you know. In process with that whole thing because we use that language of calling, but especially in our community, it's very tied to what others in the community say to us. Right? So, I know sometimes you, when I bump into people who say, well, I'm called to this or I'm called to that, you know, I'm called to the apostolic ministry. I'm like, oh, okay, good for you. You know, I'm not really inclined to pursue a whole lot there because, it a good sense of calling comes out of a community that affirms and, yeah, I identify with your space because I'm wrapping up my role with conference work in August, and I'm not sure what's next. But, you know, like you, we all sort of go, well, this is what God's gifted me for, I think. And, but I really don't know what what will his assignment be for me and you know. So yeah. That's pretty common. How about you, Levi? Maybe you got it all crystal clear here. Oh, yeah. Super cool. So I have a job for you.

Levi:
Like Julie. I'll go back a little bit. When I was finishing high school, I was deciding whether I wanted to pursue law or engineering. I settled on engineering, and very quickly, similar to Julie, realized that this was not exactly where I felt I needed to be.

Rob:
I wanted to be a dentist.

Levi:
Yeah, that's. I would never have considered that for myself.

Rob:
Not interested.

Levi:
Yeah. So it was very much yeah, this is interesting stuff, but my heart just is not in it. So, like, Julie, you just have to push through sometimes. So I pushed through for about a week and a half, and then I dropped out of school, and I came home and pretty quickly started volunteering with our high school youth ministry here, and found almost immediately that I cared very deeply about taking what is true in the scriptures and helping it come to bear on the lives of people. And these people in particular, were these grade nine boys that I got to work with, for the next four years. And so over the course of that volunteering experience, just increasingly fell in love with what it, what it means to work in the church in the kind of pastoral capacities I had available to me at the time. And so that made me enroll in Columbia Bible College for the next fall. And then it's been, what, eight, nine years of just studying theology and thinking about what it means to work in the church. And so Immerse fits within that pretty neatly in a lot of ways, because I felt that kind of growing, like Julie talks about, kind of that desire to do this and Immerse was an opportunity that I explored, and all of the things lined up that needed to line up such that I got into the program and have not really given it much of a second thought ever since.

Levi:
So for me, it is pretty clean. This is what I felt God was leading me into, and this was an opportunity that he made possible. And it's been just a really a really good journey of understanding more and more what pastoral ministry entails, what my set of strengths and weaknesses are. And then, as I'm sure we'll talk about, the Immerse program in all of its many different ways, has let me kind of build on the strengths and start to shore up a lot of those areas of weakness. So my story is a little bit shorter, and it very much is because I think I had that clear sense of calling from my first, kind of dipping my toes into the water of discipleship.

Rob:
Yeah. And I think, honestly, that's sometimes an easier pathway for guys than for girls going into it, you know, because guys see, oh, this is the next step. But, you know, a woman might go, well, what is the next step here? Because it's not always self-evident in churches that there is opportunity. But Northview has been a place where you can pursue those gifts. That's great. I want to ask a question a little bit because you've touched on it. The intersection of the practical and the learning and the difference between Immerse, say, and a classic, you know, internship program or apprenticeship that a number of our churches have and like, what distinguishes? Mark, you can address this, and maybe then Julie and Levi can speak to it too, from their own experience. But what distinguishes the Immerse approach from say, oh, you're a student, and then we also shove you into whatever ministry need we have at the church at the moment. And maybe there is some of that. I'm not going to blame you if you do. I know how that works. But maybe you could just talk Mark about, sort of the intentionality around the practical learning.

Mark:
Yeah. I think it'd be important for me to start with the fact that what we do here at Immerse, it's very specific to pastoral training. Sometimes I'll get questions, from just people in the congregation or people who are other pastors or even from profs at different institutes. Just wondering, you know, are you are you in competition with us? Just those kind of questions. You know, I hate to use that word competition, but what we say is like there is a there is a place for, I'll call it conventional, but conventional Bible colleges and seminaries. Absolutely. I mean, I attended a seminary. I'm still continuing on with my education even now. And and I loved that environment. Just, my makeup. So there is a place for that and but what Immerse, for Immerse it's just for pastoral training. So having said that, what makes it different? There's a number of ways. The first thing I probably should mention, just practically speaking, every student, every Immersed student has three mentors. That's very intentional. And you guys touched on it, but I think it's important to maybe dive into that a little bit more. Any internship program at a church, I mean, the students are going to be mentored. But here, every student receives has a what we call an academic mentor, a ministry mentor, and a network mentor.

Mark:
And, all of them, they have a lot of similar tasks, but also some things very specific. The academic mentor, I mean, that kind of speaks for itself. The ministry mentor tends to be the individual who the Immersed student, the ministry they're working under. And then a network mentor is maybe an elder or a mature believer who's part of the lay leadership in the church. The beauty of that one is that those mentors, having come from different backgrounds, maybe focusing on different things, can speak to things like character. Certainly academics, you know, thinking through, say, theological puzzles, you know, technical writing, things like that to now in ministry, obviously, talking about their ministry work. But ministry mentors in particular, can challenge the Immersed students to take what they're learning in our instructional seminars. Okay so how do you how are you going to apply this to what you're doing now? Not all of it's going to be directly applicable, but we've said the whole time, like theology is an extremely, it's a vital tool. But if it's just about filling your head with knowledge, maybe just regurgitating that knowledge, what's the point? Like, how are you going to use this in your ministry, in your counseling of individuals and whatever situation? So, the mentors go through all of the assignments, they speak to different things.

Mark:
And even for myself, for example, I'm an academic mentor to a lot of the students here. I'm an academic mentor to these two here. I tend to focus on certain things. Like when I see a research paper, I really dig into it. They might have some reflections they write, and, okay, you're laughing because I'm kind of like, this is not as interesting to me, but what I've learned by reading some of the comments by the Ministry of the network mentor I like I've learned this, how important like just reflecting on ministry work or reflecting on spiritual formation. All those things like really build into the character of the student prepares them for. Not like just general ministry, but counseling others one on one group situations and all of that. So, it's really important that they have these mentors. So that's I would say probably one of the biggest differences between this and a conventional program.

Rob:
That mentoring piece is great to hear. Like you're saying that the mentors they all know what the student is studying and they integrate, it's not just up to the student to make the connection, but the people who are mentoring the students are all in with the fact that you're an Immersed student. You're working on this stuff. Yeah, that would be significantly different from we're just using you to run the youth night.

Mark:
Yeah. Right. And we get to spend like four years mentoring. So I get to know students in different ways, like Julie, anytime I invite her to say, write an article for something or do a podcast, she immediately hesitates because, she feels maybe she has nothing to offer, but I can hopefully encourage her. I know she's sitting here going, why are you saying this?

Julie:
Well, I'm sitting here, so that's persuasive right?

Mark:
Right.

Rob:
But is he asking you to do something? Is there something coming up?

Mark:
No but she has a lot to offer. It's interesting. When you were Julie, you were talking earlier. You're sharing your story. You have such an eloquent way of putting things. You have these word pictures. I'm always taking mental notes going. I should include those types of things in my comments on people's assignments. But anyway, and Levi and I are similar in the sense that he has a very, like, sort of an academic mind. He likes to reason through things. And so we can speak at a different level. When I comment on papers, research papers, I might focus on different things for Levi rather than Julie. And I get I get to know them through these things. So as opposed to being in a classroom for a semester, you have a few assignments, usually a paper to wrap things up. And you may have some interaction with the Prof. And you may take other courses over the years with that prof. But they can't speak too much into your life. You know, how is this impacting you? Here are things I know about you that I want to speak to. And having three individuals who are mentoring to do that.

Mark:
And for us to come together as mentors to be able to, you know, bring up concerns or be able to exhort and encourage. To talk about things maybe I'm not paying attention to that. That's huge. And like I mentioned earlier, our concern is not, did you get a good grade on this assignment? It's did you master this thing? And it's, like for me, just to give an example. Usually the first thing a new student will, one of the things that they're quite nervous about and will express to me is paper writing. I can't write a paper. I haven't written a paper, you know, I don't know how to research all of those things. And I really want them. I mean, they may get into pastoral ministry and never have to write an academic paper again in their life. That's fine. But I really want them to work on those skills. And I always tell them, unlike say a seminary or a Bible college, when you hand an assignment in, we want to give you every opportunity to improve on it. So if your first paper is just pure garbage, you know, hopefully it isn't that.

Levi:
That never happens.

Mark:
No, but our job is to then walk you through how to improve it, you know, the content, maybe some of the technical stuff. But we will then give this back to you and ask you to improve some parts of it or think more deeply about the content so that the next time through you already have that in mind. So it's not about, oh, you fail this and therefore the grade for this particular course is, you know, you're going to get a poor grade. No like you've demonstrated improvement because we've asked you to do these things, whether it's in ministry work or the writing or what have you. So there's real opportunity for them to grow as, as Christians, grow as pastors, and grow as students.

Rob:
Right that's excellent. So I want to just riff off that sort of description and ask both, Levi and Julie to maybe share a actual concrete sort of experience with a ministry where you felt like I really had a growth and a learning an AHA moment and this is, you know, something that the Lord showed me about myself or my future or my giftings that was significant for me. And yeah, so I just put you on the spot. One of you want to go first about that?

Levi:
Yeah. Julie would prefer I go first on this. See what I mean? So I will.

Levi:
One of the, this is probably within the last year. So I'm in my fourth year of the Immerse program set to graduate, Lord willing, in June. Just over this last year, I've got to kind of get my first opportunities to really dive into some pastoral care and pastoral counseling kinds of situations where people are really struggling with difficult things. I like Mark talked about, I kind of have a bit of a clinical mind, but I'm really logical. Things fit into categories really neatly in my brain. And so at the outset of the Immerse program, I don't know if I would have been terribly excited for that dimension of pastoral work, though I would have definitely affirmed its significance and how much it matters that you do those one on one things well, or those kind of one on, like working with a couple or whatever it might be. Just that that would have been really daunting for me to step into that room with people who are in emotional crises and say, what do I have to point them to the hope of the gospel and these things? But what I found is that kind of through the the way in which I worked with my ministry mentor, Joshua, I was with him in the room a number of times where he was meeting with other people who were in really difficult situations, and just seeing it worked out in front of me, I don't know, five, six, seven times meant that when I went into that room, I knew how to start that conversation.

Rob:
So Joshua took you in, like, were you guys wearing lab coats or.

Levi:
No like, we like, most of these happened in. So I was serving at our Central Abbotsford campus at the time. Most of these were people who attend there on the weekends, who we were in their living rooms, and they were talking about the really difficult things that were going on in their lives.

Rob:
So Josh brought you along and said, hey, we're going to do a counseling visit here, a support pastoral care. You're tagging along. How did he introduce you?

Levi:
Well, so I was already known to a lot of people around the campus. So it was the benefit of being around consistently the same people on the weekend services means. That means that you are a familiar face. So two pastors yes, two pastors, but one is going to do most of the talking and the other one is here mostly to learn. So they were never surprised by my presence there, but they were expecting Joshua to lead in those things.

Rob:
Yeah. Well, that's a great, uh, you know, a great gift of the Northview community to, you know, realize that it's a teaching church, too, and that people in the midst of their, you know, they're crying out for help, are also recognizing that somebody's learning and being trained. That's awesome. Thank you. Yeah. How about you, Julie?

Julie:
Well, I mean, I think what Levi was saying jogged my mind in terms of, I think because probably Levi are made differently in that my mind doesn't work as academically, it's often more abstract, and I'm drawn to people in their stories. But I think what I have lacked and what I think I am growing in, is a confidence to speak with certainty what is true. I think when people ask questions of me, particularly in a counseling setting, I am hesitant to just give them an answer. I would rather, ask a question back and lead them to arrive at it themselves, which I think is is sometimes helpful, but is sometimes speaking out of, like my own fear that I don't know enough or I'm not going to say it well enough. And so I think over time, what I've been learning in our Immersed classes and the readings we do and all the information that is always being downloaded into our brain, Immerse forces it to work itself out immediately. There is no, like, kind of like nursing where you learn four years of knowledge, knowing that you're never going to remember it all. But hopefully later down the road something will pop back into your mind. I think in Immerse it forces that to be.

Rob:
Is that what happens in nursing?

Julie:
Sorry for the insight.

Mark:
Is it the same with doctors?

Julie:
It's called practicing medicine for a reason. I think in Immerse, that is there is no room for that accumulation of knowledge that goes nowhere. I think the knowledge that is being accumulated is always being forced to work itself out, which is a grace of the Lord in many ways, that sometimes the things, very things I'm learning is what I'm then talking to someone about the next day or what they're questioning. So I think I've seen the Lord grow that in me probably over this last year as just a confidence of no, I know what is true. I know where it is found in Scripture. I hear what you're saying. Let's search that out together. But a little bit more confidence in what is true and that that's what I want to lead them to, not just their own conclusions that might take them elsewhere, but actually lead them back to truth and confidence, because the Lord is doing something in me and is growing in me. Yeah, I guess confidence is probably the word I keep coming back to.

Rob:
Yeah. Well, that's good. Your ministry, it just goes on like that of you keep learning and figuring out stuff you don't know. And, if you're not around people who stretch you and make you aware of how much you don't know, you're probably missing out. You know, you're probably. I could likely be stuck in a rut. So, yeah, that's going to be the rest of your life in ministry is just always going, oh, I I've encountered something new here. I don't know, but I know where to turn, and I know how to learn, and sometimes it's just I know how to call out to the Lord independence. And so maybe I'll just ask this question a little bit for the two of you as well. You know, and, Julie, you can start with this. This is the the sort of, sort of soul shaping part of the journey. And, yeah. Just to touch on how Immersed has helped you. You know, when I went to college, I went to South Carolina, to Columbia Bible College there, but now Columbia International University. And they had a thing called total life training. We called it totaled life training. But they said, this is a greenhouse here. And, you know, the alarm bells went off at I think it was 6:20. And then we had alarm bell for devotion.

Rob:
6:40 to 7:10. I still remember the times, you know, and and that's how life was. It was ordered devotional and known as a spiritual greenhouse. And I remember from my years there thinking, I don't feel like this is a greenhouse, you know, I feel like they're cramming stuff down my throat. And yet I knew that it was good, you know, it was like I was packing away knowledge. I was learning things, but I wasn't always sure what God was doing actually in my heart, because I don't know, the intensity of the schedule didn't feel particularly like I was unsure how I was growing and how much was just being pushed at me. It's not a negative thing. It just was by my feeling during that time. How is Immerse? It's it seems more of a diverse approach. Right? You're receiving you're giving, you're being mentored. Talk to us a little bit about how you're growing as a person and your walk with Christ through this process. What are the areas that you feel like it's really touching you personally in your soul care and your walk with the Lord, maybe talk a little bit about that.

Julie:
Yeah, I could probably just go on and on. So you will have to cut me off. I think one of the messy and yet really beautiful aspects of Immerse is that, for me at least, it has combined my school, my church family, my work context, my friends. They're all in this messy ball called Northview. And that I'm here every day and learning and growing alongside these people. So I think the that brings its challenges. But it also brings like this, just a really unique opportunity to be a part of the body of Christ, like in all the ways is what it feels like. And so I think, the rub that comes from walking alongside other Christians and being mentored by people, both formally, those three mentors that Mark talked about, but also informally in that, the people I get to work alongside are witnesses to my life and witnesses to my soul being developed. And I have really valued the commitment that people have shown through their faithfulness, their courage to use their words, their, yeah, their presence in my life. And that we have regular like I was just saying before we started, how I meet with two of our pastors that I work with the most closely.

Julie:
We have monthly kind of mentor meetings where they have my life is free game in many ways. And and often that's an encouragement. But it's also in challenges or exhortations or I notice this in you, like, where is that coming from? Or are you the way you responded in this? What did what did you mean by that? Those that kind of accountability, I think has been, such a gift to grow under and also to be encouraged in because, as Mark said, I don't always know what I'm what I'm doing here, what I have to offer. So I think that has also been their words have changed me over time as they see what I don't see. And they call out things that I would otherwise have squashed or sat on. Yeah. So I think in many ways the, the formation alongside people has been one of the, that's quite broad and vague, but I think is has only increased my conviction that we are meant to be in local churches and not just duck in, duck out on a Sunday, but in a day in, day out, rubbing up against each other kind of way. Where people have our witness, we're witnessing each other's lives and both the formation into Christ likeness and the the pruning of our sin.

Julie:
Yeah. So I think that's probably been one of the the broad ways that I've seen the Lord most work if you want an explicit or a specific example I think has been for me personally, just my communion with the Lord, my friendship with the Lord has only increased. In seasons it's just out of dire necessity to get through each day or to do the thing that feels really hard in front of me. But it is also like, as my knowledge of the Lord has grown, so has my, yeah, my communion with him and that this is the God we get to serve and I get to know and talk with. So my prayer life has been transformed from something that I always kind of sucked at of like, man, I just need to pray more. To be like, I want to talk to the Lord more. Not all the time. It takes shape in different seasons, but I think just that continual conversation with the Lord throughout the day, has been awakened or reawakened in different ways through the season where, the god I'm learning about and writing about and reading about and talking about all the time is also the God I get to intimately know and be known by. And that's been huge.

Rob:
Thanks, Julie. I could see how being in a church context where you worship and grow and learn could could really foster that. What about for you, Levi?

Levi:
Yeah, I think the thing that the Immerse program has helped form in me is a counterbalance to my own natural propensities. At the start of the Immerse program, the start of my undergraduate studies, I think I would have I would have said that I was excited about, like, a lot of the tasks of pastoral ministry. I love the the prospect of teaching and preaching. I love everything from the preparation to the actual act of doing those things. I love a classroom dynamic and all the things that that brings. But in particular, what I've grown in is my love for the people of God. Which is really like when you're already excited about writing a sermon, but then you're increasingly, you find yourself increasingly drawn to care for the people that you're delivering that sermon to. It gives the preparation itself a whole other dimension, because you really do see preaching as primarily an act of love. As the pastor of this flock of sheep that you have been entrusted to with this particular thing at this time. So for me, it's been really growth in that love for people.

Levi:
And that also plays out in some of my first forays into some pastoral care stuff, the ability to really empathize and sympathize with people in the midst of their their grief or their anger or whatever it is. I think that's all grown alongside just my general love for the people of God, which honestly, a lot of that that deepening of that love began in the classroom. As I think about what is it? What does the gospel mean? And what community does the gospel create? Well, it creates God's beloved community that he entrusts to Under-shepherds to care for. And so just kind of the whole like doing that kind of granular theological development, as I've found really naturally, because of our embeddedness in a local church context and even in particular ministry context within that has meant that the learning that I've done has very much impacted my heart towards the people that I use, that learning to serve. Yeah. So that would be that's an easy answer for me. Love for the people of God as I've grown in my understanding of what we are.

Rob:
Yeah, I've just been reading Eugene Peterson's, Burning in My Bones. And it's his story is really interesting to, you know, he was quite academic, gifted in, you know, ancient languages stuff which emerged later with his Bible translation. But he had, you know, offered scholarships at, you know, big East Coast universities and stuff back in the day. But it was his work in churches that just kept calling him back to the people. And he realized, you know, what was filling his journal was his interaction with with people in the church, not the fact that he was getting to know, like, you know, world leading scholars, which, you know, so that's, that's really, you know, a confirming a sense of call in your life that and God gives you that. Right? His love for his bride. So last question Mark, looking ahead, and for our listeners here who are pastors and leaders across British Columbia, like what steps, what are opportunities that they might have to connect with, benefit from the Immerse program? You mentioned earlier on that some other churches are taking advantage here. And I know that, Maple Ridge Community Church has a student in the Immersed program. You mentioned also just, you know, some evening classes or other opportunities here at Northview, like you were saying, Julie, that sort of were your first steps into further education. How do you see currently how a pastor, might be able to benefit or send people, what would you like pastors to do in terms of their students and young adults, maybe middle aged or second career people in their church who are considering or the pastor sees maybe this person has a has a future or a sense of calling for pastoral leadership. How could the Immerse program fit into that?

Mark:
Good question. So let me sort of touch on what you just mentioned, like we do have partner churches. So out of Maple Ridge and then we've got a partnership with Christ City out of South Vancouver. And they have students. And that seems to be the next phase. Like obviously most of our students come from our congregation or, you know, their lay leaders here at Northview. And that's great. We're a large church, and a lot of individuals will be shoulder tapped. Just like Julie said earlier, you know, she was kind of being like, a lot of people were speaking into that, encouraging her. And that's what happens a lot around here. Railroaded. But anyway, it worked. But we, you know, we have only so much capacity here. We talked about mentors and ministries. We just can't, within our church, take on 30 students, and we you. We have about depending on the year between 12 and 14 Immersed students. So the next best thing in terms of solving that capacity is to partner with churches who have, can plant those Immersed students within their own ministry context at their churches. So the nice thing about that one, sometimes churches are thinking, I have a lay leader here, maybe a young adult or somebody who just, is showing real gifting, real potential. I would really like this person to go off to, to Bible college or to seminary to get that training and come back.

Mark:
Well, what happens, some sort of like my situation when I moved to BC, they never come back, right? That's not the case. That's not what we want with Immerse. The idea here is not for us to have students come from other churches, you know, do our instructional seminars, maybe they'll receive some, they'll receive, mentoring, academic mentoring from us. And then they're they're doing their ministry work at the other church, and then we kind of go, well, you have a lot of skill. We want to hire you on. That's not we're not interested in that at all. Like, we really very much want, one for our partner churches to be able to have those individuals trained, retain them because they've been identified and in other cases, send them out, send them out to churches that have been planted or churches that need pastors and things like that. So, we don't have a formal process where, you know, let's let's sit down and you know, have some sort of contract with a church and how are we going to partner with them? We've had, like in the case of Maple Ridge and, and in Vancouver, we've had those churches and those students approach us and say, this program is really intriguing, tell us more about it. And they get all of their information. And it's as simple as, all right, that church will invest in that person that they've tapped on the shoulder, you know, in terms of tuition, in terms of ministry, mentoring, finding them a place in ministry at their church.

Mark:
And then we do the rest. And, just to kind of step back a little bit, you know, I mentioned earlier that the Immerse program is competency based and and it comes out of Northwest, but we have our own sort of iteration on that curriculum, and we've built that based on, you know, the theology and beliefs of our church, the things that we feel are important alongside Northwest and also alongside M.B. Seminary. I think it's important to mention that they are partner in all of this, too, when a degree is given, it's Northwest and M.B. Seminary who are part of that. So they they very much have, they speak into the curriculum and we've, you know, like with our recent MA program, they were part of that process with us. So a church, particularly an MB church, might come along and say, we would love to do that. We're a small church. We can't do an Immerse program, can we tag along? Have them be part of our ministry? But do your iteration of the Immerse program, and you know, we let them see the curriculum and everything, you know, and they can make decisions that way. And I mentioned earlier, you know, we're also exploring partnerships with educational institutions. This, you know, Northwest is the obvious one because are the ones who own the program partnership with MB Seminary.

Mark:
That's obvious because we're all part of the same family. Columbia Bible College now, they're an undergraduate institution. But, we have an agreement with them where we have we have an undergrad program, a certificate program where they can have students get full credit for going through our one year, we call it our ministry apprenticeship program. So those those are the examples of what I mean of of partnerships. And we're exploring other things because like we really believe in those institutions. And like I said earlier, they offer something very different. We don't want people in our congregation to think, oh, you have Immerse, you have this map program. That's all you need. No. Like we we want you to support those other institutions. And so we're trying to explore ways outside of Immerse where we can build curriculum together, have our lay leaders take coursework and things like that. So that's what I meant by partnerships with those other institutions. But for pastors out there who are thinking, ah, I have somebody on staff or somebody in my congregation who's very involved in lay leadership. And I know I sense that calling on their life, but I don't know where to direct them to. Like it is as simple as that? Give us a call, give us an email, like we'll have that conversation with you and we'll talk through exactly what that looks like and how this can really benefit that student and your church.

Rob:
Well, I, you know, all sorts of possibilities come to mind, but the fact that you have this mentoring component here, you've been doing it for a number of years, and I can imagine that you're also training your mentors. You know, you have expectations and guidelines. So, maybe a church that, you know, has an internship program wants to take it to the next level, receive some training here through Immerse about how to be mentor and be more intentional. And then, you know, steps up in a more formal partnership could be could be a thing because we have quite a few churches around the province that run internships. And we have some pastors in solo pastors and churches who actually have some aptitude and capacity. And that kind of is a unique learning opportunity to, you know, MRCC is not a big church, but if a pastor, you know, is learning both in a big church setting and in a small church could be, could be really significant in their development.

Mark:
You're planning some really interesting ideas in my mind here. But yeah, like that's a really, that's an important thing to touch on. Like Trent Erickson, who is who is the coordinator of our Immerse program. This is something he's constantly thinking about, like being able to train mentors, identify mentors. And when we partner with these other churches, sure. Like, we can identify academic mentors, maybe right here at Northview. But ultimately, that church at the ministry and network level needs to be able to provide a mentor in that environment. And quite often they're, you know, we'll get questions back. Well, what does that look like? And for the first year, you know, the kind of they're stumbling through this not really sure what kind of feedback to give. And this is something that's often on the mind of Trent's mind. How do we how do we formalize this training a little bit? And also, you know, when you can identify people, whether it's academic network, mentorship, those people are really valuable. It's hard to find people who have a love for the church, understand lay ministry, understand pastoral ministry and understand and are experienced and qualified on the academic side, they're hard to come by. And so you really want to, like, identify them, train them, and give them all the tools possible so that they're doing great work and they're loving the work that they do.

Rob:
Great. Well, I think that's, we spent a good hour together. And for our listening, community out there, thanks for spending this time with us. Topics a little different than we've had before. But I think it's super important. It really is. Developing leaders for the future is, you know, there's a few things that are as essential for us to invest in. So especially Levi and Julie, thank you so much for, you know, just being obedient and willing. I don't know, maybe Mark forced you to be here, but we are delighted to have heard your story a little bit. Lord bless you. And continue to guide you in your journey and market and your leadership here. Bye bye for now.

Mark:
Thanks, Rob.

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