#52 - The Role of the Holy Spirit in Church Renewal ft. Esther Corbett and Tony Brown

BCMB 052 - The Role of the Holy Spirit in Church Renewal.mp3: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

BCMB 052 - The Role of the Holy Spirit in Church Renewal.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Esther Corbett:
Worship I would say in that season, worship got extended. I think what and I don't know because I don't want to speak for them because I wasn't I don't know exactly, but experiencing it, I would have said we began to believe that God was really present, and so that when we were worshiping, we could imagine that God would speak to us and that he would meet with us and that he would somehow intersect personally with us. And space was made for that. So the worship part, we rearranged our service around that. So the worship was very extended. It was a long, a lot of singing time.

Intro:
Welcome to the BCMB podcast, Pastor to Pastor. This is a podcast by the British Columbia Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches. We want to help equip and encourage pastors, churches, and anyone else who wants to listen in and be more effective in their ministry. This is episode 52, The Role of the Holy Spirit in Church renewal with Esther Corbett and Tony Brown.

Rob Thiessen:
Hey everyone, it's Rob Thiessen and I want to thank you for joining us today. I'm up here in Williams Lake at Cariboo Bethel Church. I am very excited to be joined by Esther and Tony, and they're going to share a bit about their story. We're here to tell the story of God's work at Cariboo Bethel here in Williams Lake. And yeah, I feel like this is a bit of a treasure to be able to do this and to share this with the wider MB community, everybody who's listening, the BCMB family and beyond. And as we always do with our podcasts, I just want to introduce my guests and have them introduce a little bit of their own journey and especially respond to the question, you know, about the community that shaped you, the people that shaped you, whichever way you want to take that. I know a lot of times, you know, I listen to podcasts and, you know, you come up with things like, you know, tell us what it's like to be you. And I think that's kind of a boring question, I'm more interested to hear the stories of the community that built into your life that God used and share that and through that, I think we get to know each other as well. So, Esther. Yeah, let's start a little bit with you. Tell us a little bit about your journey and what shaped your your life deeply.

Esther Corbett:
Yeah. Thanks, Rob. Yeah. So my story, I guess, begins in Prince George. Actually, I was raised, born and raised in Prince George into a family that was, you know, loved Jesus. And church was the center of our life as a family even, you know, and so the flavor of that church was different. It wasn't MB. It was Plymouth Brethren. And it had some unique expressions because of that. PB yeah. And I would say, really what I those years shaped me with a deep, deep value for the word of God. You know, deep, deep value of the Word of God and a sense of real responsibility to the Word of God, that to stay faithful to the Word of God. And, you know, that sort of noble Berean idea was a part of the ethos, you know, like search the scriptures to know what's true, that kind of a feel. So that was part of my history and a deep sense of church is planning like that. That is the way that God is at work in the world through the church.

Rob Thiessen:
So was your Plymouth Brethren Church, the kind that had no pastor?

Esther Corbett:
Yes, absolutely. It was a layman.

Rob Thiessen:
Okay. And what were the services like? Was this like one of the churches where you didn't kind of know who was speaking that week?

Esther Corbett:
Yeah, yeah for sure. So it was you know, we had a breaking of bread service first thing in the morning very early. It was a sacred space. I would definitely know that was the feeling of it. No music, no instrumentation. Everything was spontaneous. A few people would share a little bit. And then when we would do communion communally, and then we would have a Sunday school hour, which was always very gospel outreachy. There was a real emphasis on including the neighbourhood and kids into the neighbourhood or from the neighbourhood. So there's that sense for sure in my shaping. And my mom ran the Sunday school, so that was a big part of shaping my world. And then in the evening was a gospel service, which was, I don't know who's going to preach, but one of the men would preach and all the, you know, all the men were expected to carry leadership in terms of preaching and teaching.

Rob Thiessen:
So with Plymouth Brethren, sometimes people talk about closed and open brethren churches.

Esther Corbett:
This was open for sure.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. It had a strong outreach, kind of focus.

Esther Corbett:
My grandfather, his name was, uh, J M Davies. He was a sort of a founding father of the Plymouth Brethren kind of work. He was a missionary in India for years, wrote many, many books, a phenomenal teacher and preacher. So it's deep in my, it wasn't just Prince George. It was like my whole family of origin is rooted deeply in some of the values. And I think one of the values that it was expressed conservatively, perhaps, but there was a sense that the Holy Spirit was present and speaking, and the communion service reflected that. You know, there was space for, making space for the Holy Spirit to to speak and move.

Rob Thiessen:
Were there any sort of standout individuals? I mean, maybe it was your parents or grandparents or some other people in the church that you particularly remember that sort of taught or influenced you or inspired you?

Esther Corbett:
Yeah, I think so many of the women more so in my experience, like my Sunday school teachers because they took so seriously developing you as a student of the word. I have fond, like, hugely fond memories and powerful memories of women who saw me, took interest in me, made sure I was, you know, thoroughly, versed in scripture and like, I felt very seen and I felt very, there was some negative influence for sure from some of the, some of my experience had a narrowness to it that included, particular versions of the Bible and things like that. So I also grew up shaped by caution and a sense of not being able to know if, you know, we were pretty right and not sure that everybody else was, you know, that there was that flavor. But my parents weren't like that. So it didn't sort of affect me so deeply because my parents were big thinkers.

Rob Thiessen:
Because some of the, they used to use like the Darby Bible, very dispensational. Right? And some of the churches, Plymouth Brethren, I guess, would have had a strong, just like Mennonite Brethren churches years ago, a strong emphasis on end times and date setting and that kind of thing.

Esther Corbett:
The church I went to was started by two men who were part of. They were chanty men into the north, and so it always had a bit of a balanced sort of an outreach piece that I think added health, that we could have maybe been more narrow. But we, you know, the DNA was always sort of a sense of belonging or needing to matter to the community around us.

Rob Thiessen:
So for our listeners, probably most of you wouldn't recognize the terms shantymen, and maybe you're thinking it means shaman or something weird like that, but it was a sort of a small community outreach across. It was a mission board dedicated to working in outlying areas all over the north, the west coast, up and down the west coast.

Esther Corbett:
Small logging towns.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah, yeah.

Esther Corbett:
Which is Prince George back in the day.

Rob Thiessen:
And big like gospel emphasis planting churches. Yeah. Brilliant. I remember some Shantymen speakers, coming to Willingdon when I was a kid, too. Yeah. That was, and it was always exciting to hear. So that's yeah, that's great.

Esther Corbett:
But if I'm really honest, I think my parents obviously were and particularly my mom's passion for Scripture and for the church. And my dad was a servant. He served and that's what he modeled to me. You serve. That's what you do. Yeah. So I didn't really think there was another option.

Rob Thiessen:
Well, that's such a great heritage, Esther. I mean to you know, to have learned the scriptures like you did and were taught it in Sunday school. And of course, now we're in a generation where, you know, it's just like the Bible knowledge is just not there. And it's pretty challenging. But you had a foundation. And I would also say that's a phenomenal gift to have, thinking parents to sift through, because a lot of people have experiences with a conservative church and they didn't. And, or something happens in church that knocks them off their faith, and they don't have the family background that reminds them that oh no, there's a there's a stable version of this, you know, there there is a civil way to process these things or a reasonable way to think through these things. Yeah, that's a huge gift.

Esther Corbett:
Yeah. My mum often, she's passed away now, but often I even in my leadership development journey or my all the ways I've served, I hear her voice. She would often say, Esther, learn to extract the precious from the worthless.

Rob Thiessen:
Extract the precious from the worthless.

Esther Corbett:
So it was a gracious way to come into a spaces that were different than what I was raised in, and to look for God in those spaces and not be afraid. And I think that that was helpful for me, even when I moved to Cariboo Bethel and was a little unsure of this, you know, group of people, you know, that that was a helpful lens to imagine God as at work here and look for that.

Rob Thiessen:
Cool. All right, Tony, tell us a little bit about, the community that shaped you and your journey with the Lord.

Tony Brown:
Yeah. I grew up right here in Williams Lake in Cariboo bethel since I was a baby. So now I've been here more than most everybody, including the elders and whoever. Mostly because I've been here 40 years. So this is the community that shaped me. And I would say in my teens, I was really looking for, I don't know how to say it. I was looking for role models. And the church is where I found it. I felt invited into a community where I was recognized and valued and I had a part to play. That was part of the ethos that really gave me a sense of wanting to be part of it. And so I could name a few people here who really impacted me over the years. Ken Stevenson, who's our moderator now and has been involved in our youth ministry like for several decades, and Al Dickens has mentored me since I was like 15. And there was a youth intern one year named Ryan who really just the way he walked with God, I could just see that it was very relationally intimate. And there were a number of people I could say, but that's one of the things that impacted me in my teens here was the sense that God actually wants to be close to us, and that's something that's possible and good. It's good for the people I see doing it. So that was kind of the thing that sparked my faith, was seeing other people relating to God really closely and just knowing I wanted that.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. That's a tremendous gift when you're a young person and seeing some people and going that that's attractive to me. And that you found them in the church isn't altogether that common.

Tony Brown:
Definitely not a given.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah not a given. Yeah. So while you were young, was it these relationships of mentoring, were they was there a sort of a program that they unfolded on or just like you said, Al mentored you much of your life, like, were you in, you know, Boys Club together, or is this just like, you all hung out as a group here, as a church? Or how did that happen?

Tony Brown:
You know actually, Dave Sinclair Peters was the first person who kind of took me under his wing a little bit. He was youth pastor here back in those years, and I remember him taking me and a couple of friends out for golf. And I was just thinking, like, what? Like, what is he doing taking us out for golf? Why does he want to spend his time doing this? But I just got the sense that he wanted to get to know us more outside the group context. And after he went to Thailand, you know, I just kind of saw that, oh, there's a thing that can happen between me and an older man where, like, we can intentionally spend time together and that can be a really, I don't know, really beneficial for me. Really, and because of who I am and my own history, I was, I think, looking for a sense of identity. And so I saw that if I approach. So I approached Al myself at one point and said, you know, he had come to one youth event. I had met him and he just seemed like a warm person. And I went and asked him, would you think about mentoring me? And he said, yes. And so it was sort of formal. I asked him, and we just now have known each other so many years that it's kind of just an ongoing relationship.

Rob Thiessen:
So what shape did that take? Did he take you out for coffee or Cokes or go for hikes around here or you guys, what did you do? Yeah, go shoot animals. What do you guys do here in Williams Lake?

Tony Brown:
Lots of people do shoot animals. That's not me. But, in those days, my friend, my best friend and I would go over to Al's house one evening a week, or.

Rob Thiessen:
Al had very beautiful daughters that wasn't.

Tony Brown:
They were much younger than us.

Rob Thiessen:
Okay. Much younger. Okay. That's good.

Tony Brown:
They were very small, but he was still building his house. So I remember we would sit in his unfinished room on paint cans and just sit and talk for an hour, just about, I don't know, sometimes we'd read the Bible a little bit together. Sometimes we just talk about what was going on in life. And I think for us, it was just important to have, an adult, who's walk with God we trusted looking in on our lives and being able to comment and ask us questions and help us process things, you know?

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah oh that's fantastic. What a blessing! So our conversation today really we want to shift talk a little bit about well I don't know if it's a shift, but it's the continuing journey about how God's worked here at Cariboo Bethel. And you know, as BCMB we're exploring renewal and trying to get at, you know, what that might mean in various contexts. And Cariboo Bethel has a unique history and a story within our community. And I thought if we could explore that together, how did God, how is God working in lives of individuals and in this church, that it might speak to you, all of us, because there's definitely a focus on the work of the Holy Spirit here at Cariboo. And, it might inspire and encourage all of us because I think, I don't know if there's any real renewal that we're interested in. That isn't the work of the spirit, ultimately. But what happened here at Cariboo isn't going to be like the template forever. But maybe there's things that we can learn out of the story, and beyond that, we can just rejoice together and celebrate together in God's faithfulness. And think a little bit. So that's what I want to do, is just explore that together a little bit with you and yeah. So let's talk a little bit about, uh, CB here and the story. So church was planted many years ago by, 1965. Yeah. 1965 by was it Jake Bolster or who came up here?

Esther Corbett:
Uh, no. John was one of the first pastors, but I don't think he was the first. But, Isaac. Somebody. Isaac. I don't know.

Rob Thiessen:
I was some of those legendary early people and MBs did go to different parts of British Columbia, Vanderhoof, and other places and pulled people together who were living up here and planted churches. I think your planters right out of the gate had a certain, you know, hunger for God, openness, focus on evangelism. How would you describe the DNA of this church and, you know, in its early years and then talk about.

Esther Corbett:
Yeah. So I arrived here in 1989, from Prince George. I moved here for work as a dental hygienist. And I would say that was way before any sort of formal renewal language was used. But I would say coming in the language and the expression and the ways in which they talked from the front of the church on a Sunday was obviously sort of, ease around the language of the Holy Spirit. There's evidence that things had happened already in their story, that had left had marked them as with that kind of comfortability. And the DNA of those leaders, maybe in their own storylines, had exposure or had been formed with comfortability around the Holy Spirit? I'm not exactly sure. But like, certainly when I came, it was already there was already some sense of an ease or the full gospel business men's movement had influenced the church, the women's aglow movement. You know, key leaders within the church were the women's Aglow leaders and those, they had real language and comfortability around Holy Spirit activity. And that was already here when I moved here in 1989-90. And, very unfamiliar to me. Like those were all new thoughts for me coming, but also I think John Balzer, I wasn't here when he was here, but The Leftovers or the imprint or a hugely in terms of community impact evangelism warm. They were a family and you're welcome and very warm. And an imprint, you know, a sense of, evangelism, but not in sort of a formal sense. More like very relational.

Tony Brown:
Yeah. Outreach might be a better word. Community outreach.

Esther Corbett:
Yeah. He was just very present to people and many, many people when I first came here. You know, if you heard their stories, they came through John's whether, you know, loud and warm invitation. He has a imprint here for sure. Significant.

Rob Thiessen:
When North Langley was planted. Paul Fast and Betty were known for, you know, Betty would bake a loaf of bread. Paul and Betty would go and knock on the door of any visitor while they knocked on doors anyway. But anybody that came to North Langley, they were that week, they got a visit and a loaf of bread and kind of just old school, simple, in-your-face, friendly, outgoing people. Which and, you know, yeah, not really a paradigm people think of today, but it's very effective.

Esther Corbett:
Exactly.

Rob Thiessen:
Who was that person? And that's crazy. And maybe it's worth a visit, you know? So that's amazing. You also had you, so you came as a dentist. Did you work for for, for John and Helen?

Esther Corbett:
No. John and Helen had left just before I got here. And that, again, was a story that I came into and went, oh, that that marked this church. You know, John and Helen Burns had came to faith. He was a dentist and came to faith. And I don't know all of his story, but it was evident that he met the Holy Spirit in a unique way. And that sort of burst out of him in his leadership here and the young adults group around him thriving huge, you know, sort of impact, high impact individual. Yeah. Him and his wife and that definitely left a mark. And like I said, that's why when I came, it was like, oh, this is already something that I'm not familiar with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The ease in which they talk about the Holy Spirit and their expressions of worship were quite, you know, they weren't, there was enthusiasm.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. Enthusiasm. Yeah. Well, John came to Willingdon after that. Okay. Yeah. And so for our listeners here, John and Helen Burns, they founded Relate Church in Surrey. I think now it's his daughter Danica who's pastoring Relate church. And John has been, John's an evangelist, so he's like a Holy Spirit, on fire evangelist. I mean, there were stories about him leading people to Christ in the dentist chair. I'm not sure if that goes with the College of Dentists appropriately, but and somehow it feels like you're a captive, you know, I think. Is that fair? I mean, but he was effective and passionate. And when he came to Willingdon with his accordion, I remember going to Wilmington to prayer meetings at 6 a.m. at Willingdon. And you were awake because John Burns was there with with an accordion, and we were singing, and it was fantastic. As a young person, I was just, I mean, I was kind of watching from a distance, but he was, I was going to say a force of nature, but shall we say a force of the spirit. And that's not like a blanket statement of everything that he said or did was right. But, boy, God used him to challenge and spark, renewal. People's lives were renewed around him, you know.

Esther Corbett:
I think it's John Balzer's leadership is to be applauded in terms of making space for them. Yeah, I can only imagine that there probably would have had to be a moment to go. Okay, this is a fairly new expression, right? And when I think of John Balzer and maybe the eldership of that time, they had the courage to kind of go, we're going to say yes to, letting this sort of accordion playing Holy Spirit movement. And again, I wasn't here for it, but it definitely had already impacted the ethos of the church. And it was beautiful. Yeah. Really compelling to me, given my sort of super conservative background.

Rob Thiessen:
So, describe a little bit about how this, you know, there was language of the Holy Spirit already happening. So how how did it evolve or express itself? How did the, I mean, you were living it so you didn't really have a lot of comparison with other MB churches. Williams Lake doesn't have other MB churches. So this was Caribou Bethel MB. And, you know, there's openness in the Holy Spirit language. How is it affecting what's preached, how the spiritual gifts are practiced, like are they are is tongues and stuff being practiced? And the service feel like a how did it feel? How what what how would you describe it?

Esther Corbett:
When I first came here, I don't I wouldn't say it was like a lot publicly. It was all just like sort of a known reality. And certainly if you went to a Women's Aglow meeting or something like that, it would be expressed clearly in those sort of parachurch expressions. But there was prayer ministry happening at the church after a service, which was a new feature to me. And in those moments it was an intimate connection with God, and it was compelling. Like Tony said, I could tell some of some of it. There was some very, a couple of women that really carried that DNA of prayer and initiatives in prayer.

Rob Thiessen:
So were people hustled off into a separate room or just right there in the in the worship centre.

Esther Corbett:
Right at the end of the service, there would be space made for prayer and a sense that God would be present in that moment. And those men, those women were praying for people.

Rob Thiessen:
Very much, things that would characterize like a vineyard service, too.

Esther Corbett:
Yeah and I guess all that's before there was that thought it was just it seemed organic to what was going on here. I came in there in the 90, but in the early 90s, there was a period of time we didn't have a pastor, Dave and I, my husband, we were sort of young leaders. Dave was an elder. I would say we were young elders. So and we didn't have a pastor for a season and then invited a new pastor in the early 90s, Mike Young, who you probably know, and with Mike, Mike's own story of sort of burnout as a church planter back East and his longing for God in renewal of his own faith, God met Mike in some pretty profound ways between letting go of what he was doing in the East and coming to us. So when Mike came to us, he had had an experience of God that was a bit more holistic than he had known prior. He knew God, obviously, as his, you know, he'd been saved and understood church, but he hadn't really understood this is his story. I mean, he would would have said the Holy Spirit. And in the transition from East to west, Mike had experiences and opened himself.

Esther Corbett:
And God met him in ways that when he came here in the early 90s, he was, sort of very hungry for God and very, so when we hired Mike, we hired a guy who had appetite to add a risk taking nature. And I think the combination of that, together with an eldership that was had a history with the spirit and weren't necessarily that nervous or threatened by that. That combination made a space and Mike began inviting folks in from. You know, to bring in sort of some teaching around different aspects of the Holy Spirit. And it was at that time that there sparked something significantly different than just your average Sunday morning. Because at that time in the early 90s that experience or that the way that played out and looked like. Yeah, it was very public. There were manifestations of the Holy Spirit. There was gifts of the spirit being used publicly. There was, you know, praying for people and they're falling over and all sorts of what seemed dramatic at the time, you know, because it was so outside of certainly my box. And many of us and was also fruitful.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. What would that look like in terms of the worship and the music?

Esther Corbett:
Worship I would say in that season, worship got extended. I think what and I don't know because I don't want to speak for them because I wasn't, I don't know exactly, but experiencing it, I would have said we began to believe that God was really present, and so that when we were worshiping, we could imagine that God would speak to us and that he would meet with us and that he would somehow intersect personally with us. And space was made for that. So the worship part, we rearranged our service around that. So the worship was very extended. It was a long, a lot of singing time.

Rob Thiessen:
Were people having spontaneous words during that time?

Esther Corbett:
Yeah. All of that began to emerge as people were experiencing God testimonies also as well. But space for.

Rob Thiessen:
How many people, how big like how big is.

Esther Corbett:
Large at that time. And in fact, it got really big. We go in and out of big to bigger.

Rob Thiessen:
So big being 200, 300, 400?

Esther Corbett:
It would definitely have been 300 people. For sure at that point. And then because because of what was said yes to and because of what we were experiencing, it drew people who had curiosities or were like, oh, okay. And so, you know, we had many people often coming from other places to go. I've heard that God's working here and I don't know that we knew that we were stewarding it like that. But in retrospect, I can see that's actually what was happening.

Rob Thiessen:
And how about leaving? Did people leave too?

Esther Corbett:
Oh yeah, there was some leaving for sure. I mean, there was leaving when the accordion came out too, you know. So there's, you know, or when we clapped or when, you know, there are always right, you know. And so I think that was true of that in the early 90s too, there was leaving and there was joining and there was grieving in the leaving because we didn't know how to make sense. Like, it wasn't like we knew that how to make sense necessarily of all that was happening. But we were willing and the elders were willing to let it unfold. And not stop everything.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah, yeah.

Esther Corbett:
And so the tension of that, but I think I've said to you before, Rob, the beauty of that for my experience was that, you know, the MBs have this beautiful familial value where we're family. So as this was unfolding, that value is what stayed intact. So it was like we're staying at the table, we're working through this. We are meeting there's a season where we had an elders meeting every week to try to go, how do we pastor? How do we steward this? What do we do? Is this God-like? And we forged relationships that were very deep and needy of God together, because we didn't know exactly how to lead this right, or to stop it or to, you know, because it's evident there's flesh and spirit at work in any time, any time like that. There's both things going on.

Rob Thiessen:
Maybe we'll talk a little bit more about that. Tony, you were young at this point. So how are you experiencing this? What what parts of this are thrilling to you? And what parts are sort of causing you questions.

Tony Brown:
Yeah. Like I so I kind of my earliest memories are a little bit before Pastor Mike, but really most of my memory is from the time that he was here on. And so I remember just being a kid and then a teenager and observing all this stuff going on. And I don't know, like I said in my story, the sense that people were walking closely with God and that there was a relational reality to that was so compelling to me, but also it was just there was just a lot of strangeness, right? There was a lot of strange things going on. And so as a young person, I remember just trying to take it all in and somehow wanting whatever the kernel was. In the middle of what people had, but wondering, how do I get to wear that myself, you know? Yeah.

Rob Thiessen:
Did that, create, so you, you know, what you're describing there is often, you know, people's experience in a church that is having a lot of experience of God. So somebody, you know, is, should I fake it? Like, you know, these people say I should speak in tongues, or these people are falling. Maybe I should fall. It's that, you know, how did you process that? How did you hear understand that? Who helped you think through that and, you know. How did that how did you experience that pressure?

Tony Brown:
Okay. To go right into that part of my story. Yeah. I would say in youth group, we were trying things out that, that the rest of the church was doing and even I was coming to when I was 15, 16, I was coming to we'd have a special speaker come in and put on a conference for the weekend. And I was hungry. So I was coming to those. And, but I can remember one, one youth group time a bunch of the ladies had come in to pray for us and the way they would have maybe said it is to release tongues. And so they were praying that we would be able to speak in tongues. But something about me is that because of the way I grew up, I didn't have a lot of access to my own emotions. For example. And so people are having these kinds of experiences that seem like, like emotional and more than that. But, um, but for me, I would see someone do something and be like, how does that work? But I don't have any idea how it works. And so I spent a lot of time in those years trying to think like, okay, why doesn't what's working for other people seem to work for me? I'm like a little bit more cognitive. My wife and I used to joke that I have an emotion about once every ten years. That's no longer true, but it was at the time and kind of in the years since then. So yeah, I went through some years of kind of hunger, but also pain. I really want what other people seem to have, but I don't know how to get there and like, what's wrong with me? And through that, yeah. As I unpacked that over years and got to know God better on a in a different way. In my own way. I think I came to see that.

Rob Thiessen:
How is that way? What was what parts of getting to know God, where did you feel like you really started to grow in the roots went down for you deep?

Tony Brown:
I would say in my own time alone with God in the scripture and in prayer, that was kind of when I began to feel like there was some connection. So I remember praying the Bible. That was a big theme and kind of the charismatic church at the time. And we were trying that out, and that was a way that I felt like I connected to God when I would pray pieces of Scripture. Yeah.

Esther Corbett:
I think, I wonder if I could ask, like Tony, for me coming into that season, I was in my, you know, late 20s, early 30s, that kind of a season, young leader. And, but I had been formed in this other context that we, I just referenced, you know, I had a biblical narrative that I was clear about, and my foundations were. So when I experienced some of those sort of other ways that the Spirit of God was moving, it landed on biblical literacy and a sense of my own ability to trust for discernment of how to discern these things. You were about, what, 12 or 13 or how old were you in those early years?

Tony Brown:
Like when it might come? What year was that?

Esther Corbett:
Early 1992, maybe.

Tony Brown:
So I would have been 9 in 92.

Esther Corbett:
So then the difference, maybe even part of it in the story is like you were being formed. So what we were setting as a new culture was now going to be your formation was around these experiences. Without necessarily having all those other pieces in place.

Tony Brown:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That helps me answer Rob's question, because what I'm trying to get to say is, I felt on one hand that there was this thing, this relational reality with God that people had that I wanted. But then, on the other hand, I didn't actually know God well enough his character to understand what his heart in that was. And so I actually experienced that as an expectation on me. And so I spent many years in my teens and 20s not feeling good enough, actually, for God, because I couldn't do the thing that other people were doing and relate to God in these ways that apparently he wanted me to relate to him and and that I wanted to relate to him in. And so there was like a religious element, if you can believe it. Right? Like a religious performative element to the kind of charismatic things that I thought were supposed to characterize my relationship with God. And so that's the journey I had to go on. And I began to realize as I unpacked that over the in my 20s and 30s that I began to think, I don't think it's about the expression, I think that there's something underlying that's more important. And now what I, what I can say is there were just a lot of emotional health components that made a lot of those ways of experiencing God out of reach for me. But I think that God was more interested in me learning how to open up to him on those deeper levels, the emotional health level. And that's where that's where I have met God in my life. As I've stopped trying to do something particular and started just trying to open myself up to God in wherever I am and experiencing him with me and discipling me through my own particular journey, you know? Does that make sense?

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah, totally. And also, just you know, the importance of the role of of knowledge of the word of God, like how that was different for you, Esther having that foundation, it reminds me of how Dallas Willard, talks about in one of his books about, you know, how we develop as people, right? Just like children develop. They're taught the law with a kid. You tell them. No. Yes. No, you don't bother explaining a lot of whys when they're children because they're not going to understand it. And the whys come later. And the experiences of life come later. The foundations are the tools that, later on. Yeah. It's interesting. My experience too. I had really solid parents and yes, some good Bible knowledge. But what I remember, yeah, I remember about the church, always being growing up in a mennonite brethren church that, the ethos of commitment, servanthood and family was very strong. I grew up at Willingdon, where there always was this sort of outside dose of charismatic element that was brought in periodically, wasn't truly owned by us as a community, but it was always salted in and so John and Helen came to Willingdon, were there for a while, and they kicked up a lot of dust. It was it was exciting and very good, very good for our church.

Rob Thiessen:
And they also had a dynamic small group that became a small church in which he eventually started a church out of. But, you know, so we all, we all bring components and then when groups though churches are not, holistic or balanced, they miss something. And I know I really covet for all of our churches that they that we would recover not, you know, exactly what happened here at Cariboo Bethel or at Willingdon, for that matter, but that they would recover. You know, that openness, that risk taking that you describe. So another area like in terms of how the church, Cariboo Bethel not a perfect church, but a church unique and experiencing things. You know, we talk a little bit about the, the, you know, upward, inward and outward sides of church, a connection with God, connection with fellowship with each other, which you referred to the strong family bond that was here. What about how this affected the church in the community you mentioned? People came, looky loos came, they heard. I'm assuming there were maybe other Christians or maybe people. What about reaching out into the community? Into the world? How did this, how did the Holy Spirit's work at Cariboo translate into making Cariboo effective as a mission church?

Esther Corbett:
Yeah. I mean, one of the words I remember being spoken at the time over Cariboo Bethel was that you would be like a hospital, like a regional hospital. And again, not even knowing how to process that fully, but in retrospect, looking back and seeing, because we kept inviting in these speakers that were, like the John and Helen's, like, people who brought in a flavor that was we were learning about and open to discovering. It really did become regional. You know, Prince George, people like these conferences when the when we had these conferences, Rob, they were it wasn't 300. The church was packed. And so we went, you know, we went on a ride of those kinds of dynamics and there was a lot to learn. A lot of good things happened, and there was a lot to learn from that, you know, to lead forward differently too, because that has a downside when you kind of let yourself be think your, central, you know, and what you do with the actual congregation as opposed to this visiting congregation, which are very two very different realities.

Esther Corbett:
So learning how to how to pastor that. But, as far as the real throes of the the few years that it was very really happening. I don't know that we thought a missional thought intentionally. I don't think we even like I think we were just like, how are we stewarding this? And the missional sort of the deposit that I can recognize. Looking back, one of the things that has stayed with us, even though that season is well in the rear view mirror, is a deep, deep desire and passion and practice around prayer and prayer that actually is way beyond praying for a local context. And it also led us into relationship with some of our Multiply what is now Multiply. But back then would have been messy or that relationship was forged out of sort of the ways in which we were experiencing the Holy Spirit blended with and made sense to that community or that those leaders. And so we really and me particularly, right, like I spent a lot of years taking Caribou Bethel with me into the multiply world and the global world.

Rob Thiessen:
You took on a leadership role with, with intercessory, work with Multiply.

Esther Corbett:
Yeah. And so the, you know, the deposit or the thing that we experienced, you know, as you move through it and you kind of the dust settles and you're like, what's actually left here that matters. And for me, and certainly I can see in our church even today, is this deep commitment to and understanding of prayer and not as a function or practice as much as about intimate relationship with a God that speaks and he speaks and he's present. So that is all that's left over. It's still here. It's still part of who we are as a church. And so I think the missional and Dave and Louise Spee were launched out of that renewal season. It was actually after one of a really significant conference.

Rob Thiessen:
Dave and Louise Sinclair Peters.

Esther Corbett:
Yeah, we had a conference, a very big conference with a guy named James Ryle, and he was helping us work through a spirit of poverty. This was the the language that was used at the time. Anyway, we gave a ridiculously large, offering. I think it was $89,000 or something came in in one thing. And what we felt like we were supposed to do with it was give it to the church. That was the first church in Williams Lake where, and so we perhaps naively, but we chose one Sunday morning to take our little check for $89,000 and walk down the street to a very little church and kind of walk in on their service with this check, thinking they would be thrilled about that, didn't go so well. But, in the end, the beauty of that story is that in their not receiving the $89,000, they actually said, we'd like to give it to your mission agency and so that it can go to mission work. And so when it was received by our mission agency, it was tagged for team 2000. And it went with Dave and Louise.

Rob Thiessen:
So in the air for our listeners, they were team 2000 was a team that went into Thailand.

Esther Corbett:
So that became seed money. Right. For what the team 2000 work in Thailand. Yeah.

Rob Thiessen:
And Dave and Sinclair, Louise are still they're working in Myanmar and just as we came in to do the podcast today.

Esther Corbett:
Lee has taken at team.

Rob Thiessen:
Lee has taken a team from the church over there to to connect.

Esther Corbett:
So I would say, you know, if I'm looking back and I can connect the dots, I see for sure the missional impulse, emerged out of that deposit and it, you know, we had traction and a pathway with Multiply to express that. And I mean, Tony, that's part of Tony's story, right? Him and Sarah actually ended up in Panama with Multiply, right?

Tony Brown:
Yeah. Both of us. Yeah.

Rob Thiessen:
Tell us a little bit about that journey too. And how did the renewal at CB affect that sense of calling?

Tony Brown:
Yeah. I guess like I said, I grew up here benefiting from what was happening by gaining a sense of identity from from a community. Right? And part of that identity, I just had this sense that I wanted to give my life to this kingdom work that was happening. Right. And so as I grew in my in my early 20s, it kind of well, I ended up going on the Trek program with multiply and to Thailand and with Dave and Louise Sinclair Peters. And out of that I thought, yeah, this is what I think I want to do. This is what I think God's calling me to do with my life, to be a long time missionary. So, I came home and worked toward that for a few years. And Sarah, my wife, also did the Trek program, I think a couple of years after me and we ended up, married with the same kind of dream to go overseas. And so we worked toward that for a number of years and ended up, joining with Multiply about seven years ago. And so we were invited to Panama. So that's where we went to go be long time missionaries. We were only there for three and a half years, though. And then Covid and other complications hit and we have come home. But yeah.

Esther Corbett:
That's the gift is Tony's able to be on staff here in his coming home.

Rob Thiessen:
Your capacity here now?

Tony Brown:
My capacity here now, I'm on staff part time doing, I oversee small groups, a little bit of pastoral counseling and and preaching once a month.

Rob Thiessen:
Okay. And you're going to school?

Tony Brown:
Yes, I'm doing a master's of marriage and family therapy through Briercrest Seminary.

Rob Thiessen:
Good yeah. And you said before, you really enjoying that?

Tony Brown:
Yeah. Really enjoying it. Yeah.

Rob Thiessen:
Fantastic.

Tony Brown:
Yeah. And for me, the integration of how people know God and also their kind of emotional and relational health and how those two things impact each other, I would say that's my focal point. That's what I would love to be able to walk with people and unpack.

Rob Thiessen:
So for our for my benefit and for our community too. So we're, you know in this last year we're just embracing a sense of call saying, well Lord renew our MB churches. And of course in a general sense we all want to be renewed. But in particular, you know, we're yeah, it feels like there's churches among us in our community. We could all grow, but there's particularly churches that haven't experienced much growth and much obvious fruit in terms of new believers, people being baptized and church growing for for years. And there's a multiple reasons why that may be. It probably varies from church to church, but I'm sure that you here also are hungry for whatever God is doing at this time and more. And you've got a heritage of risk taking, a foundation of prayer, amazing people in this community. And the church is amazing. You know, I just recall when we were up here, whatever, that was six years ago for convention and all the fun that we had. You're a fun church. You guys did a stupid Mennonite skit that was really hilarious down in the basement. And, as well, you've been so gracious because there were some really difficult years in there where the conference sort of stepped in, sort of, you know, put the church under discipline of some fashion, which, you know, we didn't really have much history for that happening other than like we talked about when MBs first became back in the, it's like the early days back in the Ukraine when they put an early one of the early churches under discipline because they were a little too, you know, too Pentecostal over there. And so we had that history. But Cariboo Bethel, like embraced the community and said, well, we want to learn, we want to grow. We want to be submissive to leadership, which I think is just such a beautiful testimony.

Esther Corbett:
Yeah. It was very, you know, those years of experience things that were beyond our experience. You know, you can't lead. You're leading in the moment of learning. And, there was probably some very real ways that we were immature or presumptuous or I don't even know. I can imagine how that how it may have seemed. And there was, you know, there was cost to taking those risks. And you know, having the conference, involve itself in a way that brought a corrective to us. In retrospect, I'm grateful for that. Not necessarily the way that all happened, you know, but again, it stopped us short in terms of going, what are our core values here? Are we just going after the experiences we're having, or do we belong to a family, and does that family actually have value? And if it does and they're asking us not to do this, then you know, what's our posture here? And I remember the meeting when we had to meet as elders and it was called elders and wives meetings back then. And we just all had been asked to fast and pray and come ready to answer the question, how would we respond to this ask for us to stop having these events and and distance ourselves from some of these renewal streams? You know, we went around and 100% of us were like, of course we're going to submit like of course, like it wasn't even a question. It was like, because those deeper values and the construct of our Confession of Faith, you know, that it provided a field in which we wanted to live that had a sense of safety to it, and none of us were ready to go beyond that. And it's in retrospect, like I said, I think it was a helpful.

Esther Corbett:
It was an adjustment that was painful and, you know, humiliating in some ways and somewhat public, a sense of feeling misunderstood. But, I've watched that all be redeemed. You know, I've watched as over the years, conference leaders, I remember Steve Berg coming and standing up there and saying, I'm sorry. You know, we didn't read that moment well, and, you know, and us being able to go, well, we were probably immature. And so it's okay. Like we're going to be okay. And moments of exchange of apology and acknowledgment have been very meaningful along the way. Right? And so and even my movement into Multiply and being able to give leadership in Multiply to some of these elements, blessed to do that because, you know, there's been space made for and value placed on the work of the Holy Spirit is sort of testimony to like we've we've been able to walk well together, you know, and even when I first started at Multiply, Ike was there and, you know, Ike Bergen and who had and he, you know, one of his first talks to me, he just said, oh, Esther, I'm so sorry. That was, we didn't do that so great, you know, and I was like, yeah, we probably weren't that great either. Like, we were probably immature, you know, or just lots of little exchanges that I, for me anyway, were very meaningful, you know, because the family value is deep and it matters, right? That we that are it's the space between us that matters. The relationships matter. And I think, I'm thankful that that is how we move through this is at a relational integrity pace. And that mattered.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. And that's great. That's a good reminder. You know we talked a little bit earlier. We've we've been through some waters here currently where you know we had relational breakdown with churches and they veered outside of our confession. And those conversations were hard and didn't feel particularly redemptive at all. And you know, the outcome was different. So sometimes maybe we reflect on ourselves and we think, oh, I guess that's just how we do things. But it isn't just how we do things. And I think, you know, what you're describing is really healthy for us all to remember, too. Oh, no. Even within the boundaries of our confession, there are some healthy, and very real differences in pathways that we have to learn to walk together and help each other, do well and and stick together. It is a huge blessing. And those hard conversations also are important for the health of the community. But right now, in the life of the church, like where you're at today and what are some of the things that you sense God, you know, what you're praying towards? Where your faith, hope and prayers are for the future. Like, what are you, you know, what are you building? What is the foundation look for the Tonys, who are nine years old right now? What are they experiencing? What do you want them to experience here at Caribou Bethel? And, yeah, just talk a little bit about that and where the future might be.

Esther Corbett:
Yeah. So, Rob, thanks. I mean, I took over senior leadership here in, middle just at the beginning of Covid. So I, my role has shifted from being a congregant to being a senior leader. And, so coming in at Covid was how are we going to thrive?

Rob Thiessen:
Survive.

Esther Corbett:
Yeah. No, I was asking, how are we going to thrive? Because I wanted to I actually and I found that actually, really, really I've told you this, I found it uniquely inspiring season because you could just think so outside of the box. So seldom in church is there space to think outside of the box. Absolutely. So I'm an outside the box thinker. So I was like, this is fun, you know? But I bet it got a little tired. So, but to stay on in leadership and to realize, okay, now it's not just getting through that. It's actually got to build forward. I've kind of realized I needed to look back far enough and go, okay, what do I want to bring forward from what our history is as because we had a moment to reshape right as we began again and kind of reevaluate, like, did that even work before? Why would we do that again? You know, so I really, together with the leadership, had to think through some of those things. And in our rebuilding process, just because of my own story and the way I've come to understand, like formation is essential to me. Now, when I think of my background, the renewal experiences, my global work, I've just learned, like, you can't skip formative steps like formation matters, you know? And so when I think about what I want to see happen at the church or our leadership thinks about it, we think through that lens like, what are we trying to form? How are we forming people holistically? And so one of our first hires was actually a children's pastor to say, like from the very beginning, how are we going to shape and influence the narrative of Jesus in, you know, young children lay the foundation, lay those foundations.

Esther Corbett:
Because in my life without those, I would have been, yeah, you know, off the rails. So and then small group formation. So hiring Tony going, you know, like it matters that we're in spaces where we're having honest conversations about emotional health. A spiritually connected not just theory, but how is it living itself out? And so putting a lot of emphasis and staffing behind those kinds of things. And reconstructing the service to reflect sort of, you know, we the kids are present enough that people go these this generation matters, you know, and sort of decisions like that and then really focusing on the formation pieces. So spaces where, you know, not assuming people know how to pray. So when I have a prayer meeting now, I don't think, oh, everyone knows how to pray. I think, how can I help them feel like, how can I put handles to this experience so that they can learn to and come in? Because often prayer meetings, nobody comes because they're either afraid of what's going to happen or it's going to be super boring. I'm like, they're the funnest meetings ever. If you've got some handles and you can imagine together how you could experience God communicating back with you. So I've tried to think those thoughts like compelling, building compelling scenarios for learning together as opposed to assuming we already know. Mhm. Mhm. And I don't know, I'd be interested in Tony's reflection on that because he's worked alongside me now. What else would you say you've, is that an accurate reflection?

Tony Brown:
Yeah. No that's as I was thinking about this. I think part of my own story is that I had to really, deconstruct and reconstruct how I thought about the faith as I experienced some things really not working for me, and that I had to I had to kind of go through a process of figuring out, well, what what do I actually live like? I appreciate the Anabaptist value of kind of practical theology, because that's what's helped me through my discipleship journey, is looking at what do I actually live like, I believe, and how is that different from what we say we believe? And what do I do about that? And I think for me, I've come to see it as good news when I notice a way that I'm living that isn't like what I say, I believe, because then actually something could get better if I actually learned to trust God in a new way. And so I think as we reconstruct, part of what I'm honing in on is, yeah, instead of assuming we all know what we're doing, what if we actually started checking? Like where's the discrepancy between what we kind of say and how we live? And how can we have conversations about that, where we process it together and process it with God and process it through the lens of His word, but but not leaving the word in this kind of archaic language, but asking, what would it mean if we said it in our own words today, you know?

Esther Corbett:
And we early on decided to do a few series that would really help just talk about why do we even gather? Why do why do we sing when we gather? Why do we give when we get like questions that maybe were assumed before? I just thought, why don't we not assume that everyone knows why we do this, you know. And that's been really refreshing. And then sort of emphasis around discipleship, you know, we've spent a lot of time in the book of Ephesians, you know, discipleship and which is another way of thinking about spiritual formation. Right? And so those kind of values, I mean, are we're not going to really move from those, they're core to what we think matters. And really, I came into a leadership where that is, I'm inheriting that DNA that has always been, it was just a unique opportunity to reboot or recreate and freedom to think some new thoughts.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. So you said you spent a lot of time in Ephesians, so I'm assuming you're talking about teaching Sunday mornings, teaching the word. What are some other sort of, venues or ways where this is lived out, where people are asking those questions? You're with small groups. Do you have like midweek gatherings of people. Do you put people in triads or small groups or what are the practical ways where the community is together, you know, and the work of God happens? Discipleship happen?

Tony Brown:
Yeah. I would say our small groups is one of our primary venues, and there's sort of a few different ways that that looks there's a couple of women's groups. So there's a men's group that's kind of dynamic and growing, and there's some just regular traditional small groups. But then another thing we did a couple years ago was we took some of the maybe newer potential upcoming leaders, and Esther and Leah and I kind of went through a year or a year and a half of kind of a once a month formation track with them. So, yeah, we were kind of trying out some. Yeah. I don't know, we were doing a few different things, some formational experiences and helping them grow in their ways of relating to God and also their ways of relating to the church.

Esther Corbett:
I think because for me coming in, it was like, let's not assume that just because someone's a leader necessarily means they've been formed spiritually. Like, those are those are good things to ask, you know? And sometimes we just we want the operation of the function of some, but it's better to kind of go, okay, what's holistically behind that and create spaces for people to talk about things that we don't often talk about. You know, those formative what do we believe about this? Why do we do this? You know, and so we did this track with developing leaders. I've kind of tried to approach every single group in the church with a developing leader mindset. So whether it's, you know, my for example, in the summer time, I've tried to imagine thinking through the congregation, some people who have some gifting around speaking and so honed little groups of people who like, you're going to be the summer teaching crew, work with you, spend time with you, get into the passages with you. We've connected sometimes we've brought in Mark Wesner or someone to go, let's help us think about and talk about these passages that we're going to be preaching. And then the summer is every Sunday is a different person, you know, developing. So it still feels like, you know, that risk taking piece that was in our DNA. I still enjoy that I have freedom to risk. And let people risk I don't I hope with wisdom and supported well but you know so that there's the spaces. The front is, you know, there's opportunities for growth and people to, like Tony said, develop into the their identity and God.

Rob Thiessen:
Is that what you say? That's kind of where you feel continuing ongoing. This is what we're going to focus on is developing, people in their identity and their grounding is that describe sort of the heartbeat that you have.

Esther Corbett:
And with a with a reboot of the missional, you know, post-Covid, it was like just not even a thought to kind of reengage beyond ourselves. But we've, Leah is a new leader in the role as a missionary missional leader. And so she's, you know, really found, you know, we're really getting behind trying to get our kids mobilized back into some. So they're going to SOAR in Saskatchewan or in Winnipeg, you know, we've got our youth group going to SOAR and a team going to Thailand. So we're making an intentional effort to reboot.

Rob Thiessen:
What is what is mission look like here in Williams Lake for Cariboo Bethel?

Esther Corbett:
I would say if Leah was answering that, she would say, really it's to do with partnerships, we're a small town. So you don't want to reinvent the wheel. And we have very real challenges in our community. And the Salvation Army is central in resourcing a lot of those challenges. So we have a lot of our people who are very connected into that pathway. And Leah forges that relationship and holds that with. And that's been super helpful. So we have I would say we think more in terms of partnership with existing, service industry, you know, ministries, in terms of intentionality.

Tony Brown:
We also have Alpha, which Leah has run for a couple of years now. That's been really good.

Esther Corbett:
Yeah, Alpha's been really life giving and we've seen God at work there. Rob like really exciting stuff and that's awesome. And even now, see people coming to church who are not yet sure of what they're going to believe, but they're showing up interested and asking if there's an Alpha. So I find that unique and pretty exciting. Yeah.

Rob Thiessen:
It's so good that many of our churches are. And Alpha's been, you know, continually sort of updating its, presentation for the culture, answering the questions of the culture. And it's just, yeah, it's brilliant. And like, every church needs a bit of a front door because, you know, you can't take every Sunday to rehearse. Why the cross? Why do we pray? Why? But it is answering all those questions for people who are just beginning the journey, right? Yeah.

Esther Corbett:
And even as I name these things, obviously one of the strengths and gifts of God here at Cariboo Bethel is lay leaders that are deeply invested. Yeah, yeah. And care and are, you know, gifted and called and operating in that. And so I feel like we definitely lead in team.

Rob Thiessen:
Yeah. Well this is an exciting church I know that. It's just and you've impacted Williams Lake. We haven't even talked about your investment in Camp likely. And you know what that has all meant. I know that your pastors have always worked to connect with the local ministerial and be a presence in Williams Lake. And I think for our listeners, too, of course. Most of the Mennonite Brethren people are just like the population base down the Fraser Valley. But I don't think pastors know just, you know, what a great experience it is to shepherd a church, because a church that's effective and healthy in a community is very visible and gains a reputation quickly in the community. And, that's a great gift, a great place to to see Kingdom fruit come. And I you know, I see that up happening in Dawson Creek with our church plant there, Fort Saint John, Prince George, Westwood, Vanderhoof. You know, I'm going to be up there visiting. But these churches in the communities, in these towns really have a great impact. We praise God for what he's done here at CB and for you guys and your faithful service. You're an inspiration to us. And, yeah. So for everybody listening, we've gone over an hour in this talk. I thank you for your patience for joining us on this episode of the podcast. And until we're together again, maybe have a blessed week. And I pray that you might be filled with the spirit and taking risks. As our friends here at Cariboo Bethel have have shown us that a good pathway, a good example. God bless you, see you soon. Or be with you again soon.

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